She’s 16, she’s beautiful, and she’s mine.
Johnny Burnette, ‘pedophile.’
Statutory rape laws as we know them are a product of the Victorian period. These laws were originally made to protect the economically valuable virginity of unmarried young women. It was also a reaction of working class men to the force of hypergamy — the female instinct to select men of higher status. It was a way to prevent wealthier, more powerful men from monopolizing young working class women in rapidly growing urban areas.
As the 20th century progressed, virginity was no longer a prerequisite for marriage. The original justifications for expanded statutory rape laws became obsolete and forgotten… but they remained for a reason.
Female power in society was growing rapidly as the industrial world matured. The old laws very much benefited women of reproductive age. Females 18-35 found themselves miraculously protected from the depredations of their fiercest competitors — the up and coming ones. The temporal conveyor belt that ruthlessly cycled women out of the market was effectively slowed down by 3-4 years.
Females have always been able to benefit more from cooperation while males have had to spend more of their energy on competition. This is the natural result of a zero sum situation in which one man can fertilize countless women. The sex that has to break ranks first and compete among itself ‘loses.’ The party that can cooperate more effectively for longer is able to dictate the terms.
However, statutory rape laws have distorted the biological game even more strongly in favor of women.
We might call the resulting trend ‘hyper-hypergamy.’
Though females have always been the gatekeepers of human reproduction, their enormous power had a major limiting factor. They had only a handful of years at peak value in which they had to settle with the best mate they could find. If they did not hurry, their opportunity would be squandered and a new generation of young women would be taking their pick of the richest, most desirable men.
Indeed, it does much to explain our present world if we understand how statutory rape laws and other pro-female policies have changed society. Feminism and the overall decline in female standards of behavior can be explained by a shift in the balance of power. Females now simply have fewer restraints on their behavior.
Unfortunately for women, the present distorted order is unsustainable:
1) A group that adopts Victorian-style statutory rape laws will experience a drop in overall fertility and an increase in birth defects.
If a society tries to keep its most fertile and desirable women from reproducing while promoting the interests of women who are in the twilight of their reproductive years, the rate of fertility and the quality of offspring must fall relative to those societies that subscribe to biological reality.
2) Historically, it often takes a man a decade or two after reaching adulthood to get established.
It’s sink or swim — of all the men who ever lived, only a minority managed to have kids. The male’s main advantage is more time — nearly twice as much as a female has. Hyper-hypergamy encourages women to hold out for an additional 3-4 years before bearing children. Meanwhile, men must compete more intensely than ever to secure women with fewer remaining reproductive years.
When older women have artificially high value, the man who can finally afford a family at age 35-40 is going to have difficulty achieving reproductive success when the most fertile women are out of his range. At present, a 35 year-old man is going to be lucky to find a mate more than a few years younger. A woman past age 30 is already beyond her best reproductive years. The probability of genetic defects in any resulting children is much higher, assuming the female is still able to conceive. Thus, we predictably see ‘fertility therapy’ growing into a huge industry in the Westernized world.
Where hyper-hypergamy reigns, the only men deemed fit for fertile wombs are those born into wealth, and a handful of ‘naturals,’ lucky celebrities and entrepreneurs who make it big while they’re young.
3) When women are approaching the height of their beauty in their later teens, they are one of society’s most powerful means of motivating men to aspire to great things.
Great civilizations are those that find constructive ways to channel the abundant energies of their men. The right incentives must be there. Not only does a great reward spur men on to great deeds, men who perceive that the best is given to the corrupt and undeserving will rebel and look for ways to undermine the system. Societies that fail to offer their men sufficient incentives to act in the collective interest perish.
This said — we might look at who the present society rewards with many of its best young women…
An assortment of high school athletes, class presidents, and homecoming kings who have yet to accomplish or contribute anything. They are showered with society’s greatest gifts early in life for throwing balls around, attending parties, and generally acting as thugs.
In short, high school football teams get a steady supply of young virgins while all other males are expected to work hard for their leavings for the rest of their lives.
What message is sent to the majority of high school males who see these thugs monopolizing the sexual market as part of their formative experience? Will they be predisposed towards trusting or helping the society that demands their effort and productivity? Most will not think any of this out on a conscious level, but they will follow their self-interest all the same.
Where might we predict that a society like this is headed?
Conclusion:
Victorian-style statutory rape laws may seem a sweet deal for many women, but both men and women lose in the long term.
Women 18-35 enjoy heightened social status, but they lose some of their most valuable reproductive years in their teens — before environmental factors have had a chance to damage the supply of eggs they carry with them from birth. Thus, the two years from 16-18 are far more biologically valuable to her than are the years from 33-35 in which she’s spending thousands of dollars on fertility therapy and dealing with exponentially greater odds of conceiving a child with Down syndrome.
With biology already heavily skewed in favor of women, further inflation in the sexual market creates an untenable situation for men.
The resulting cutthroat competition interferes with the ability of men to cooperate and accomplish goals that further the aims of society.
Society becomes less stable and less innovative.
Social unrest and upheaval become inevitable.
Ultimately, an understanding of underlying sexual politics gives one a much better model for predicting the crowd’s behavior than does focusing on individual movements and ideologies.
Giovanni writes at 6 Heretic’s Way.
{ 95 comments… read them below or add one }
It’s certainly affected me that way. I moved out of the country and I’m a young, college-educated, ambitious man. I moved to Asia, too, where the women treat their men far better on average than American women. They’re also usually not sluts and have far better attitudes.
Age of consent in many states is 16, not 18. (Mine included). Pretty difficult to argue that a kid 15 or less shouldn’t have some statuatory protection from predatory adults.
@LadySadie
a 15 year old is not a kid, nor he thinks and behaves as a kid. All you psychopathic feminists/liberals should stop arguing that everyone below the age of 18 is a kid.
Nice analysis but it is not how it works. Sex is universally forbidden everywhere, so most sex going on is illegal and occurs under the cover of the night. Only the daring have sex. The masses intuit that this is so but they lack initiative and courage so they spend their life masturbating, with prostitutes and the lucky ones may end with a pre-menopausal wife.
The word of “Rape” is not defined by women. But today feminists are misusing this word. Especially they use this word for spreading out an unpleasant attitude about men and male sexuality.
http://spiritofnature99.blogspot.com/
@Maaldweb
If you’re going to call a 15 year old a kid, there’s not justification for not calling a 24 year old a kid, or a 29 year old for that matter.
Ages 20, 25, 30 all have some pretty substantial ‘maturity shifts’ involved with them – new perspectives on life, and greater levels of responsibility become innate. And presumably onward from there. I have occasionally argued that 25 is the true beginning of adulthood (you can be mature at 20, but you don’t have the life experience), but to conflate that with “20 year olds or 15 year olds can’t be responsible for themselves” is ridiculous.
Of course they’re young, and desperately in need of guidance – which they no longer get – but they’re hardly children.
I say I say! Well done, sir.
Age of consent has to be the same as the age of majority. In other words, as long as a parent is legally obligated to care for his minor child, he ought to expect state’s backing in keeping other adults away.
Consent was lower in the past, but this was understood as marriage, not fucking. In cases of mere fucking, the state turned a blind eye to retaliatory violence on the part of the girl’s relatives, or shotgun-marriage.
The biggest advocates for lowering the AOC are male homosexuals. See NAMbLA.
People mature, mentally and physically, at different times and ages.
One of the main problems with our current age of consent laws is that they were intended for a more homogenous society wherein the vast majority of the children, all distant cousins come of age at roughly the same time.
In the future, we will determine emotional/mental maturity by means of computer testing. The future is not individualized, but the near future is.
LadySadie, is a 14 year old boy who is manipulated by an authority figure like a female teacher also a victim of statatory rape? Because this hypocritical society doesn’t think so (female statatory rapists are rarely legally charged and are given slaps on the wrist at sentencing) Your age of consent may be 16, but that’s a LEGAL LANDMINE because the laws concerning men and sex are intentionally set up to screw him. For example, If a man’s 16-year-old girlfriend sends him a sexy photo he will be treated as pedophile scum regardless of what the age of consent is. You’re full of shit.
Most fertile years are 22 to about 25. It doesn’t decrease as fast as people make it out to be. It was recently discovered that human females can actually produce new eggs during there lifetime. So satutory is to keep old prevs from giving 16 year olds v.d. which is more harmful to the birth rate and society then letting them. Younger woman aren’t developed to give birth and die in higher numbers. Your concern trolling for the population (currently around 7 billion mind you) is stupid. There’s a good reason you can’t rent a car from a rental car agency until you’re 25.
Yes wingwoman you’re right. Older cows really do give the best milk so by all means wait until your 35+ to have kids so as to give yourself a little fun “me” time. I’ll send you a coupon for a new cat later on, promise.
Remo,
Cats are better than children. My neighbor has thirty and they catch mouse and bring them home to show off her. What can be a truer present of love for Christmas?
@Ferdinand
Note that PA is baring his mangina socialcon “blame and regulate the male” agenda once again.
This time he’s finally openly admitting he wants the age of consent moved up to 18 everywhere and may even be an activist for it elsewhere.
He’s obviously a closet activist for it here and over at Roissy’s, although even the troll King A has more guts than he does about revealing his animosity toward men who want sex with younger, hotter, tighter females.
At least King A has the courage to directly criticize Roissy.
PA doesn’t have the guts to come right out and repeat all the time how much he wants the age of consent to be raised to 18.
He won’t even build up the nerve to gainsay Roissy when the latter posts about how alpha it is for old men to fuck teenagers, which is now happening more and more often.
PA did say a few days ago that his testosterone has crashed and that is why he believes he, and supposedly all other men over 40, no longer feels any sexual attraction for females 16-20.
I’m way older than that and I didn’t get that memo.
Let’s clear up some of the bullshit he just smeared over the comment section above:
1 – No, asshole, it’s not just HOMOSEXUALS who want to fuck 16 year olds.
What kind of fools does PA think manosphere readers are?
2 – No, asshole, fathers of 16 year old women are not less likely to want to fuck other 16 year old women. The film “American Beauty” was at least accurate enough to show a dad wanting his daughter’s best friend.
Roissy has made it clear that the classic beta male uses the “every woman is another man’s daughter” excuse not to get laid.
3 – No, asshole, in the past fathers were not often butchering males who had sex with their daughters, at least not for reasons of age difference. Shotgun marriages were sometimes a way to make a rich man pay up, but then again rich men were often blamed when the actual sperm was from a poorer man.
Remember, PA had an online orgasm last year when he heard about a beta father in Germany who got two of his brain-dead friends to hold down a 56 year old professor who’d been seeing his 17 year old daughter and cut off his dick with a dull bread knife. The father has since gotten six years in prison and 100k euro fine, but I believe the father needs to get done to him what he did to the other guy.
We’re talking about an anti-MRA trolling around here advocating violence against men who have sex with women above the age of consent.
In any event, age difference fucking was not a big reason for violence in the past, at least not any more than same age fucking was.
The hatred of older men is a recent development spurred on by older women who get manginas like PA to troll for them on men’s forums.
PA has made it very clear that this is a big agenda item for “him” and reason to post in the manosphere. Too bad there are MRAs who’s agenda is the opposite.
Caveat: Technically, if PA’s thirtyish wife hasn’t yet hit the wall, he’s a White Knighter and not yet a mangina. He will become a mangina when he no longer wants much sex with his wife, which statistics say should be soon or already a done deal. If PA is a male, statistics say he will be divorced and looking at online teen porn within the next 10 years.
In the past, such as in Puritan society (where most girls were pregnant when they married), it was better to learn that a baby daddy belonged to someone who could and would pay for it. If that was the owner of the bank, all the better. If anything, the man who got shot or lynched in the past was a poor non-white male whom the daughter may have said “raped her” after she got pregnant.
Neocons like PA (he’s no Paleocon) just make shit up about what the past was like. Note his love for progress politics: “A parent…ought to expect the state’s backing” in keeping men away from his daughter. It’s “Let’s get the state to repress people now that the people aren’t repressing themselves.”
He’s a right wing progressive socialist.
The past wasn’t about progressive manginas begging the state to intervene against older men dating younger women.
The Puritans were doing pre-marital sex in the 1600′s like jackrabbits, long before any so-called sexual revolution.
It was only between 1830 and 1960 that America was sexually repressed.
@PA
I want to see you directly attack the Chateau, on his forum, for his post about the 51 year old marrying the 16 year old and his many similar posts about how White Knigters and manginas are helping the feminists raise the age of consent (for the first time in human history).
I want to see you say “Listen Heartiste, you are getting too influential with 4500 readers per day I am getting tired of you saying that 16 and 17 should remain legal in the majority of US states and 99% of foreign countries when it’s obvious that government should do something about the 6000 year old problem of men having sex with other men’s daughters. I totally oppose you on the idea that men should have sex with these, the hottest young women, and I plan on undermining your message whenever you spread it and directly confront you, yourself, about it.”
Go to the source if you’re not a coward. See how long your built-up good will (from being one of the first commenters there four years ago) will last.
For that matter, ask Ferdinand to stop letting Giovanni and Human Stupidity post so much against the feminist attempts to raise the age of consent.
Maybe Ferdinand will let you write an article in response, where you promote the idea that Men’s Rights Advocates should join the feminists and social conservatives in raising the age of consent to 18 (age of majority) everywhere.
Maybe you’d belong here in the manosphere if you could do that and get a positive response.
Hi Jerry, my nutty friend :)
since you mention American Beauty, did you forget that Spacey’s character changed his mind at the last second and didn’t fuck the high school girl, and the movie showed this as being the right thing to do?
boy, I missed your awesome rants!! :)))
Hi @PA, my mangina big government socon friend who now admits to having low testosterone which is his new excuse for being uninterested in the hottest 19 year olds (don’t try to pretend, buddy, that you’re thirtyish wife is still hot).
Maybe you didn’t get the memo that Hollywood producers are often beholden to the feminist left. Why do you think that film won Best Picture?
They also made sure the anti hero of the film was killed off anyway.
And they excused the wife’s affair. He, apparently, had that coming.
The older female audience, who decide what gets nominated for the Academy Award, needed the Kevin Spacey character to be brutally murdered for even having thought about sex with that hot teen.
Meanwhile, except for Thomas Kennedy, it was the supposed conservatives of the Supreme Court who voted to have that film considered “child porn” because it implied the actress was under-age according to California law (California joins Iran and Saudi Arabia as one of the few places on Earth where the AoC is as high as 18). They voted, unsuccessfully, to uphold a huge big-government law that would make any erotic depiction on TV, film or the Internet of a female that is 18 years old but “looks younger” illegal child porn.
It’s embarrassing that Justice Kennedy has had to pull men’s chestnuts out of the fire more than once when the conservatives on the Supreme Court allied themselves with the Christian Feminists on some issue.
This kind of anti-male, big government attitude is one reason why the Republican Party is going through an anti-socon sea change right now.
If that actress was 16 when they filmed, most men would have gone through with it with her, especially in the 99% of the world where that would be perfectly legal.
She was hot when they filmed that. I don’t know what the actress looks like these days, but I’ll bet she now looks acceptably old to feminists, White Knighters and manginas.
@PA
You didn’t confirm whether you will finally confront Roissy, or for that matter Ferdinand, the next time a popular post appears extolling the virtues of sex with hot teenagers.
It is, after all, an issue near and dear to your heart.
A few weeks ago, when Roissy posted something that made it totally clear that you’ve lost the longstanding argument with me on this topic, I felt like calling you out at the top of the comment section to make it clear to all the Chateau readers that you haven’t learned, you’re not with the program and you’re still on the side of the feminists and old women.
It would have been a riot to see you and King A vs everyone else.
But why bother when it’s so clear that your agenda on this topic is not getting any traction in the manosphere.
Silly goofball, you’re the one who reached for American Beauty as your authority, LOL.
Didn’t Heartiste once take you to the woodshed for playing “let’s you and him fight”? Geez, that’s so womanish of you.
Hugs & Kisses!
@PA
I wrote that “American Beauty” was at least accurate in it’s depiction of how most men would react to his daughter having a hot friend like that. Obviously, the film was a hit job against men. It’s telling that you agree with it’s final message.
Heartiste and Ferdinand (who lets Giovanni and Human Stupidity post) are taking your agenda to the woodshed at least once per week. Just because you’ve built up enough good will on other subjects not to be directly chastised on this, doesn’t mean your agenda on this isn’t being trashed repeatedly and consistently from the top of the manosphere on down into the comment sections.
It is cowardly for you to avoid confronting the source of all the rhetoric about opposing new laws raising the age of consent.
Hint: I’m not the one to be arguing with on this topic that seems to effect you so deeply.
You don’t even have the guts to confront Giovanni and Human Stupidity.
During our last argument, Heartiste reminded you that, if a socialcon tried to compete with another guy for a woman at a bar, he would lose. He was trying to tell you something there. It was indirect criticism but he directly addressed you when he wrote it.
That was a polite way of telling you that you’re not ready to single again once you realize that you’re no longer interested in having sex with your wife.
Also, shortly after our last argument over there, Heartiste posted about how that 51 year old actor with the 16 year old was cool.
He broke new ground with that post and he’s posted more of the same rhetoric since. It’s not going to stop.
You just don’t want to get the polite message that it’s best for you to drop your crusade on this topic.
Jerry, you are still baiting two grown men into “let’s you and him fight.” If Ferd or Heartiste wanted to, they are perfectly free to confront me on anything they want to, up through and including the ban hammer. You clearly already once annoyed one of them with your womanish nonsense, and were sharply rebuked for this. You persist nevertheless.
No two people agree on everything. Thus, I’ll inevitably have differences of opinion with other intelligent people on any given subjects.
You know why I’m batting you around like a retarded goofball, rather than arguing with you intelligently? Because you fly off without even understanding what I wrote. Read my first comment closely again: I don’t care what the age of consent is — it can be 13 or it can be 30 — so long as its equal to the age of majority. Got it, Jerrykins?
@Jerry
“PA did say a few days ago that his testosterone has crashed”
He said the exact opposite of that on Chuck’s site. You might be confusing him with someone else. I believe someone named Jack said that once and you flipped out about it.
“The older female audience, who decide what gets nominated for the Academy Award, needed the Kevin Spacey character to be brutally murdered for even having thought about sex with that hot teen.”
I’m an older woman, and I liked Kevin Spacey’s character in American Beauty.
@PA
Now you’re backtracking, which is good and it’s what you did in our original argument when you condoned the IMBRA law and said men who dated American women were more alpha than those who date foreigners. You’ve since lost the manosphere general opinion on that topic as well.
You made it clear above in this thread that you feel that, as long as a parent has legal responsibility to, for instance, pay child support on someone, that parent should have a (newly created) force of the government behind him or her in blocking males from having sex with that young woman or man at age 16 and 17.
This would be legislation new to civilization after 6000 years of recorded history. That means it would be “progressive”.
Technically, you’ve pointed out that the phrase “Child Support” and the laws that make it necessary to pay until the offspring turn 18, does seem to support the idea that people are children until they are 18.
But if you’re going to backtrack and now say that you aren’t going to advocate for raising the age of consent on the manosphere, that’s good enough for me.
You’re blind if you didn’t notice when Heartiste directly told you, at the same time he supposedly got harsh with me for telling you to confront him about him having the same opinion as I do, that you wouldn’t be able to compete as a social conservative against another man for a hot woman in a bar. And you’re blind if you didn’t notice, shortly thereafter, his post on age difference relationships that completely discredited the point of view you had in that argument (you had said that men who date with large age differences are genetic mutant losers). ;)
Noooope. Not backtraching, just spelling things out at your reading level.
And as you see, Heartiste disagreed with me on a specific issue. You though, got slapped for acting like a bitch. Which wasn’t lesson-enough for you. Now kindly stop hiding behind or calling out other bloggers.
@PA
Yes, you’re not backtracking because you just said that men’s rights and the age of consent should be held hostage to what the courts decide is the age that child support needs to be paid up to, as if that’s ever going to change from 18.
That effectively states that you still do want the AoC to be raised everywhere it hasn’t already been to 18.
So that second to the last comment ended with weasel words.
Heartiste disagrees with you on THE ISSUE we were arguing about.
How obtuse can you be PA?
So what if he didn’t want me to force him into directly telling you that you were wrong? He went ahead and did it indirectly with a number of great posts.
In terms of defeating your agenda, I’d take that kind of “moral support” any day compared to him mildly dressing you down in a comment section.
Likewise, if Ferd allows Human Stupidity and Giovanni to continue reminding guys that the White Knighters and Feminists are trying to put them in jail on this issue, who cares if he rebukes you personally or not for your desire to put other men in jail for doing hotties?
I do think you’re a coward for not confronting them YOURSELF if you feel they should stop having posts published that support my point of view on this.
Maybe I like it when some writers post articles I disagree with because they write them well?
Are you mildly senile? You don’t seem like someone who had always been this odd.
@PA
This isn’t a topic where men feel that’s it’s OK when White Knighters disagree.
But it’s great when the White Knighters are OK with the manosphere bloggers disagreeing with them.
It shows that the depth of conviction among White Knighters is shallow.
And that’s a good thing.
Sure thing, lil buddy
“At present, a 35 year-old man is going to be lucky to find a mate more than a few years younger.”
———————-
Please refer to R.Don Steele’s seminal classic “How to Date Young Women for Men Over 35, Volumes I and II” for information on how to alleviate this condition.
Here’s an almost exact analogy of the above debate:
Imagine that meat was scarce in North America and the Vegetarians and Muslims allied politically to make it illegal to eat pork, ham or bacon.
Ferd might consider the issue to be about hypothetical things not affecting his life much, much like the global warming debate or a debate about whether those under 21 should be allowed to buy alcohol. It wouldn’t effect him personally because getting any meat at all would be so scarce in his province anyway. He’d be thinking “I’d be lucky to get some processed chicken gullets that were canned with sodium nitrite 6 years ago”. The idea of eating fresh pork, ham or bacon would be all hypothetical to him.
Them imagine that he goes to Europe or Asia and enjoys years worth of pork chop medallions in dijon mustard sauce and honey glazed hams. It wouldn’t be so easy, but a little alpha behavior would go a long way toward a man getting this. He’d also enjoy chicken and beef and pasta as usual, of course.
Then he comes back to the US or Canada. As he gets off the plane, he sees a report on the airport terminal TV on Fox News that some 45 year old California banker with a wife and two kids was caught by neighbors frying bacon in his kitchen! But don’t worry, Fox News says, this pervert meat eater was fired and his wife promptly left him. He won’t be jailed but his life has, thankfully, been ruined. His kids aren’t allowed anywhere near him. Thank God for the state.
Then Ferd logs on the Internet and sees males in the comment section of the Fox News report using their real names to say how they would seriously like to forgo due process and personally fry the meat eater who dared to cook that bacon and do so in a large frying pan of his own.
And they’d be serious. They really would have internalized the Vegetarian and Muslim propaganda so much that they’d seriously risk going to jail for committing brutal vigilante justice against a man who ate pork, ham or bacon.
Would Ferdinand then figure that the Vegetarian-Muslim commenters still have an equal opinion on his blog? What if they said they specifically wanted to report him under the Protect Act for having had glazed ham at a Paris hotel in March 2010?
Would it still be like a gentleman’s debate about global warming?
I don’t believe the top manosphere bloggers have personally had sexual activity with 16 or 17 year olds in recent memory. If they did, their toleration for “the other side” would reduce itself to below zero. They would see the other side, controlled by a christian-feminist alliance that wants to do violence against men, like they would see vegetarians who were successfully getting meat eaters arrested and ruining their lives.
The friendly debate atmosphere of the manosphere should stop when one side advocates violence or incarceration toward the other. Saying that Ferd would need to be arrested, castrated or beat up for having sex with a 17 year old is no different from saying Jews need to be beat up in the streets.
Bloggers need to put more thought into this.
Jerry,
Every time you bring up this debate the saying, “It’s all academic.” keeps coming to mind.
Great article and some great comments.
@Jerry, I liked your example. Can I use it, copy it, or do you want to post this on Human-Stupidity?
I would love you guys stop over at human-stupidity.com and comment or even consider writing articles.
When on Human-Stupidity, pick the topics that interest you, from a pulldown menu of categories.
Teenage Sexuality
Why the moral outrage about 51y actor Doug Hutchinson’s marriage to Courtney Alexis Stodden (16)
@Human Stupidity
You can copy it, paraphrase it, and thanks for your great work. I personally don’t have the time to scope out much more than IMF and Roissy’s place. In my spare time, I’m busy actually dating young women, many of whom lie about their age (making this the opposite of an academic issue for me).
You may want to concentrate more on two angles:
1) Concentrate on how this is not an academic issue for any man with game. Even a man in his seventies, if he has anything alpha about him, will get plenty of opportunities to tell a compliant 16+ teenager to strip and she will do so. In fact, this compliance part of young women’s brains upsets the older manginas so much that they’ve been working with the feminists to get new (unprecedented in history) laws passed making it illegal for an ever increasing definition of “someone in a position of authority” to have sex with women 18 and over.
Also, any man who games and fucks 18-20 year olds is definitely going to be having sex with 16 and 17 year olds who lied about their age. Alphas, by definition, will be flirted with and lied to by women that age.
2) Once we accept that this is not an academic issue and that you, me, Heartiste, Ferdinand and any number of other male readers are likely to be fucking a 17 year old in real life over the next year (someone who lied about her age; any man with game is going to find himself with the opportunity), it becomes an issue in itself that even one “male” troll in the comment section can agitate for violence and incarceration for the rest of us and get a pass by the blogger for advocating said violence.
It shouldn’t matter if that troll has built up brownie points by writing some good comments on other topics.
That said, by living in feminized and faggotized North America, it’s possible that you, Heartiste and Ferdinand are not seeing the opportunities to make this a non-academic issue for you or you’re justifiably frightened by the fascist atmosphere into ignoring the flirtations of anyone under 21.
For anyone with game who has been outside North America, this isn’t an academic issue and there shouldn’t be any room for disagreement in the manosphere. I predict that bloggers will understand this in the near future, especially if they get out of the feminist matrix more.
Correction: I will start reading Human-Stupidity.com more.
It’s a great blog and it’s smart that you’re translating it into other languages where your material will be found faster overseas. I’d help you whenever I can. Meanwhile, yes, go ahead and post that Vegetarian vs Meat Eater analogy as a post if you want.
Your message (the message of sane men) needs to get out, especially to the non-feminist world because it’s getting feminized fast.
@Giovanni
You make a convincing argument that a relationship between a twentysomething woman and a fortysomething man is often a good idea. However, you seem to imply that such relationships are hurt by age of consent laws, in spite of the fact that such limits are never higher than 18.
Your argument for not having the age of consent set at 18, while valid, is very weak. Hot seventeen years old and stable/providing forty years old falling for each other? Sure, a aoc set at 18 sucks a bit for them. But all it really mean is that they will have to spend a few months holding hands and buliding their relationship before they start having sex. For them, the aoc would be a nuisence, not the end of the world.
No, the men who have most reason to hate the AOCs are the ones who lust for onenightstands, not the stable and mature men who want to have kids.
However…
@PA
Your argument for setting aoc at 18 is VERY weak. No, we don’t need to have one single age for everything. Maturity is a gradual process in real life, and the laws should reflect this. Also, aoc is there to protect children and immature teens. Not to protect the jealousy of certain parents.
There is no perfect age for aoc, since it’s always a compromise. In my opinion, 18 is way high while 14 is too low. 16 is more reasonable. Sure, there are some who are 18 and too immature, while some who are 14 migt have the strength to guard their own interests from adults who would take advantage. But the compromise need to be somewhere in the middle.
im not arguing for age of consent at 18. I’m arguing for it to be equal to the age of majority, whatever that age may be.
The logic is that as long as men are required by law to provide for their kid, they should reasonably expect to have a certain kind of “property rights” over the kid they’re required to care for. And this includes being empowered to keep adult males away from their ward.
Women are often “wards” of their fathers until 25 or until they are married. If the feminists were to make that into a legal requirement, it’s unconscionable that any non-faggot would say that men should be burdened by big government even more by telling them that they’ll go to jail if they have sex with any female under 25.
Instead of advocating for progressive new laws unprecedented in human history and only possible because faggy US evangelists gave women the right to vote so they could criminalize prostitution 100 years ago, PA should stick to the time-tested and non-controversial idea that some fathers can mess with the love lives of wards via curfews and educate them not to be sluts, etc.
New progressive laws about “child support” should not be used by anyone pretending to sympathize with men’s rights to justify tag on laws that assume 17 year olds are really children as the term “child support” implies.
If fathers can’t even get custody of offspring easily these days, any new drive for “property rights” over offspring should work with the Men’s Rights Movement on custody issues and not against it by pushing to throw more men in jail for having sexual activity with hotties who are old enough to be responsible for their actions.
If a 16+ daughter wants to be a slut, she’s to blame. Women under 25 tell me all the time that their father yelled at them for being a slut when they got home late from my place. Society starts to break down and civil war begins when men start blaming other males too much, especially if some faggots work with older women voters to get progressive new laws passed to regulate other men.
No man who believes women shouldn’t have gotten the right to vote would work with them so closely as socon males still do (they were the ones who originally gave women the vote and they are secretly still glad they did).
In reality, since daughters are only 16 and 17 for two short years of any father’s life, and because healthy fathers will feel sexually attracted to the 16 and 17 year old friends of those daughters (where “American Beauty” accurately depicted human nature), this isn’t such a big deal and fathers might do the curfew thing and not worry too much.
Because of these factors, there is no logical reason why there would be any legal push for higher AoC laws by any bloc of “father voters”. No father would care for more than 2 years (per daughter) and he would perceive his own conflicted interest in the way he views young females who are not his daughters.
It takes a bizarre male to not recognize his own conflict of interest, should it matter so much if his 17 year old is out tonight with Sean Connery or some other high status man. If he were single, widowed or divorced himself and had the status of Sean Connery, he’d be doing the same thing.
It’s the older women voters who would benefit for a long time from the AoC subsidy Giovanni describes. This would matter to them for much more than the two years that any father would care.
In “For Your Eyes Only,” when James Bond said “Get your clothes on” to the 17 year old Swiss girl, that was done for the benefit of older American female viewers.
That’s why I’ve long suspected that PA, who apparently has no daughters anywhere near 16, is arguing on behalf of the older women.
Jerry, the law does not compel a man to care for his 25 year old daughter, he does it willingly, presumably under some kind of a mutually-rescindable “as long as you’re under my roof” deal. It does so in the case of a 16yo, so long as age of majority is 18.
Jerry, you persist in your senile-autistic blinkered take on men’s rights being limited to scavenger’s rights. Which ill grant is purely academic in your case, unless stalking girls who don’t return your calls lands you young poon.
Your goofy take on men’s rights negates a man’s right to sovereignty over his most important property, family.
I don’t argue on behalf of older women. I argue on behalf of men and their rights.
@PA
You are an older woman.
@Jerry
To me it’s obvious that he’s arguing on behalf of certain men rather than certain women. He’s arguing on behalf of clingy jealous fathers… At the expense of their offspring and the (real or potential) lovers of said offspring.
@PA
Children are NOT property. If you Treat them as such you deserve to lose them. And you most likely will, once they are old enough to rebel against your tyrrany.
If you are stern with your kids for THEIR sake, they might thank you later. But if you indulge your power over them for your own sake, well, you reap what you sow. :-/
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B32yjbCSVpU&ob=av3n
And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1CE4P8qqPE
And while we’re at it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CxgT1jKvWU
CXC, your reading comprehension is at Piaget’s concrete-operational stage.
The only relationship that takes priority over the father/daughter relationship in a woman’s life, is the husband/wife relationship. Until a woman is your wife, and therefore your responsibility, her father likely feels he still needs to look out for her well being.
Jerry,
If you don’t want a father interfering in your relationship with his daughter, the best thing to do would be to marry her. Then you have a leg to stand on, when you tell him to mind his own business.
Well said Lara. Intelligent anti-family hedonists understand traditionalism/libertinism tradeoffs, human relationships, and so on. Jerry does not, which is why his screeds would be unintentional comedy if not for his creepy NAMbLA-like monomania for open access to another man’s child. In his case though it’s a strictly academic exercise, as you noted.
It’s funny how PA and Lara always show up at the same time.
16 is still the AoC in most of the world and most of the US states that changed, only changed up to 17. Only Iran, Saudia Arabia and California and Utah are as high as 18 (plus a few more US states).
So it’s hardly like nambla for real men around the world to put their foot down in front of new lawmaking by feminists and mangina socons (who never had the power to make such laws before feminists took power).
Heartiste would recognize the “Pedophile Libel” being conducted there.
Every men’s rights blogger recognizes that the feminists need to be stopped in their zeal to raise the age of consent.
The aspergic immigrant troll can stop pretending that there’s just one person in the manosphere who sees the threat from both the right and left on the above topic.
@Ferdinand
You chose the wrong argument to intervene. Who cares about K being anti-game when his agenda only hurts himself?
The above is not a personal feud or someone jerking the other’s chain as you once implied.
We’re talking about a troll who is generally against age differences of 20 years or more and who was the only one in the manosphere to ever argue in favor of IMBRA. Yes, IMBRA was the topic that PA argued with me first about.
And, if it’s not an academic exercise for you, you’re being threatened by one of your readers with jail time, if that agenda gains more traction.
Do you agree with PA’s assertion that only homosexuals care about age of consent laws being revised upward?
Do you think that its “debatable” whether this topic is a valid men’s rights topic?
The troll can stop referring to 17 year olds as children as if the manosphere hasn’t challenged that idea.
A major case of intellectual dishonesty and obtuse language is being affected on and polluting your blog.
It’s your call.
Thank for the lolz Jerry. You never fail to come through. :)
Jerry,
I know of this really obnoxious kid. He showed up to school in September with a broken jaw, because he had mouthed off to the wrong person. No one felt sorry for him. You remind me of an older version of him.
And it’s not “traditionalist” to agitate for higher age of consent laws. The teenage daughters of the Puritans in the 1600′s were going at it like rabbits out of wedlock and most women were pregnant at marriage, often with the seed of a village elder but some kid was paid off to pretend he was the father and marry her.
For 6000 years of recorded history, “tradition” kept things reasonable and pro-male. Traditionalists recognized that the female was to blame in any “illicit” sex that did not involve the kind of rape where the woman screamed and fought. The AoC was traditionally low enough that men weren’t punished for being with someone who had an adult body.
So much for the “traditionalist vs libertine” bullshit.
This isn’t a traditionalist/libertine dichotomy so much as a troll/MRA dichotomy. PA doesn’t even have any offspring near their teenage years. He’s an immigrant who didn’t know what it was like to grow up in any kind of “traditionalist” American family. What he does have (if he’s not an older female which would explain his anti-male animosity better) is the desire to feel included in an ideological family, in this case his false impression of what “paleoconservatives” are. Most people with Asperger’s Syndrome are like that. This dude seems to have fallen too much in love with Reagan and the GOP for defeating communism in the home country that he promptly turned his back on anyway. He wanted to come to the USA and become a “traditionalist American”. Then he sees the manosphere rise and thinks he can merge the two concepts (one can’t).
It’s not as if I’m saying that, when men finally defeat feminism, the military needs to line faggot traitors like PA up against a wall for having worked with the Christian-Feminists (that still control both US political parties) to throw innocent men in jail.
I’m just saying that, considering the faggots own the media and both political parties, they shouldn’t be fed oxygen by manosphere bloggers who allow them to threaten all sexually active men who might be lied to by a woman who says she’s 18, obfuscate, toss ad hominems here and there like hand grenades to anyone who disagrees, fall back to pretending this is only a personal feud with one “senile” guy and then smirk about it.
@Ferdinand
Did you ever notice how Lara is always there to defend PA?
Is this the wife?
Nopsie. Nobody I know in real life comments on the blogs I do. Awesome psychoanalysis bro.
Jerry,
A big part of being alpha is having other men like and respect you. That’s something you need to think about.
@Lara
You can compare PA to Rick Perry whom he admires and shares a similar intellect with.
The like and respect of men toward Perry is self evident.
Remember that Perry also worked with the feminists: he got a Texas law passed where all patrons of strip bars had to pay a $5 levy to pay for a Rape Hotline or something like that.
The state court system overturned that law. Strip club owners and patrons refused to pay even $1 to that bullshit feminist organization. The male judges agreed they shouldn’t have to.
PA wouldn’t have seen a problem with such a law. He’d definitely say it’s not a men’s rights issue.
Jerry, you’re embarrassing yourself. You’re not arguing with me but with the voices in your head.
Jerry,
That’s my point. You are one of many people and have to recognize that your rights are going to be balanced with the rights of others. Statutory rape laws have really put a damper on your love life, so I get why you don’t like them. I’m sure there are other laws (ex. killing another person being a crime) that have worked in your favor.
I think Ferd’s article is good, by the way.
@PA
So you’re saying you weren’t trying to push Rick Perry this fall on IMF and Chateau readers who weren’t buying?
The point is, you’re hear with an agenda that most guys aren’t buying. Your choice of political candidate, your desire to see men in jail or castrated, none of it is getting any traction.
And then you fall back on trying to look cool, like you weren’t trying to push your agenda.
I’ve never written anything positive about Rick Perry, ever. It’s like with your claims about my T-levels dropping at forty: you’re confusing me for someone else.
That’s right, you were pushing Bachmann.
My bad.
No, loonytoon. I wasn’t pushing any of the Republican candidates. And yes, your bad. Your entire ouvre is your bad.
Jerry,
You wrote that in Puritan New England, a teenage girl would be impregnated by a village elder, and then a boy of comparable age to her would be forced to marry her, and support the child. Does that seem fair to you? I thought your whole argument was that older men are better mates for young women, due to being able to support a family and being more willing to settle down?
Jerry,
Older women would not be judgmental of older man/much younger woman relationships if they, too, were in them. I think as long as it’s considered the norm, they would be accepting of them, as was the case in the past.
Jerry,
PA’s wife is significantly younger than he is. He has written comments on other blogs about how he can’t imagine being with a woman his same age, and he seems to agree with you on older man/younger woman marriages being the ideal. It seems odd that you dislike him so much. You would think he’d be someone you would look up to, since you always praise older celebrities who date much younger women.
@Lara
Ironic isn’t it? He’s married to a foreign woman 10-12 years younger than he is and his four fights with me were condemning me and others for doing that kind of thing, but in a more extreme manner and without the marriage part.
But, in perspective, we only clash twice per year so I guess it’s no big deal that he calls for my arrest and imprisonment that infrequently.
Meanwhile, I’ve spent the past 7 days straight with my oldest girlfriend, who’d be a decade older than the age group discussed in this post. It’s like I can’t live without her, so I get the whole monogamy thing. She’s a damned good cook. Maybe my testosterone is dropping for considering that more important than the amazing looks of younger acquaintances.
In fact, she’s got a freshly baked pie waiting for me in the kitchen now. And she’s yelling at me to come appreciate it.
he calls for my arrest and imprisonment that infrequently.
That’s rich, coming from a guy who just upthread cried for the US Marines to line me up against the wall.
My fun arguments with Jerry started at R’s, which began as a minor difference of opinion, specificaly on IMBRA. It was apparent immediately, from Jerry’s screeds at the time, that he was an odd character, prone to hysterics and monomania. How was it apparent? in the fact that no one else came to Jerry’s side, even if they objectively agreed with Jerry and not me.
At first, I was polite, because while I support men’s rights and hate feminism, I just don’t get too deep into MRA issues as a primary interest of mine. But — my politeness and reasonable tone were met by Jerry’s imbecilic howls, together with ad-homs and hysterical accusations.
In response, I began to feel sorry for Jerry. I gave him friendly advice on how to be an asset rather thana liability as an MRA polemicist, given the unstable and “off” personality he projects in his wild comments. This was met by even more hysterics and personal attacks, further strenghtening my suspicion that I am dealing wiht an unhinged person. Perhaps a senile older man, which made me in turn kid-glove him, out of an innate aversion toward abusing the weak and the handicapped.
At one point, the Chateau broke its stance of neutrality, and laid into Jerry for being a loon. For instigating a “let’s you and him fight” weasliness, to be specific.
I’d have continued to go easy on Jerry, but from the get-go, he turns a disagreement over academic abstractions (I’m not an activist, a lobbyist, I don’t influence politics, I don’t even have a blog!) into a vicious (yet comically impotent) personal attack. So I then say “fuck it” and bat him around for mine and hopefully also for others’ amusement.
@LadySadie
If your brain wasn’t feebled by feminutzi p*ssy for themselves Lez Womyns courses you would realize that essentially all men are “Predators” – Hunter-Gatherers for millenia of History & ALL Cultures.
Hitting the Bar, Club, or Dance Hall or Chuch Singles to get Laid or meet a One-Night Stand is being a Predator.. whether the woman is chronologically in her teens, 20s, 30s whatever. For the half of women who hit the Bar, Clubs, Dance Hall, Chuch Single, Striptease Club…. whether for some studly action, or a way to soak some Bling, Wine & Dine & Rent monies OR BOTH… Oops, those women are “Predators” too.
Welcome to the normative male drive of the Human Race… and the typical drive of Slut-Whores.
I recall every single 14 year old heterosexual or bisexual classmate I grew up with ALL WANTED to boink the hottie 14 year old female classmate… So how can it be wrong or unnatural or abnormal?… Menstruating reproducers of the human race as designed by Nature-Biology giving off pheromones from their purposefully functioning reproductive organs wafting to the olfactory organs of the fertile male of the species to trigger the mating of the Animal Kingdom.
Some just need to exit this Earth and launch themselves into the astral plane rectum of ascended femnutzis, “Maam”… if you don’t like this planet’s biology.
@PA
Nada with your disinfo for what you presume to be the unwashed masses.
As any male (or one in a billion genetic chimera) past 8-10 years of age can deflower a female of any age over 10+, thus rendering her not only of lower value for a husband, but also impregnate her, potentially burdening others around her…
Are you suggesting that women under 18… or in those US States were the age of majority is still legally 21, be barred from any level of sexual interaction period? As that the same defloweration/pregnancy “damage” results from an 11 year old male as well as a 39 year old male… with greater financial damage actually resulting from impregnation by an under 16 male & their inability to pay child support.
The Age of Consent (when even introduced at times) in European & N.A./S.A. law for legal free-lance prostitution, brothel work, or sex with employer for favored status in the factory/secretarial pool, was always equal to or LOWER than the legal age of consent for non-parental approved Marriage, Clerical/Royal concubinage or Mistresses or “Kept Women”. Typically sex worker (fecking) age of consent as often the orphan & fallen woman trade followed “Common Law” for Millenia & was often lower than parental/court approval “Christendom” age of consent for marriage (or seduction of a pure virgin minor under false promise of marriage). One can see this in Storyville New Orleans, LA circa WW1 (and films adapted from it: Pretty Baby), or Minnie Rae “My Life as a Child Prostitute” in the cowboy days @ s23.org, or the 20 percent of the million Victorian French Postcard pieces of pornography legally showing early teens/pre-teens as the Age of Consent in France then was 11 then 13 years of age – that’s obviously fecking, not marriage. Age of consent was always understood as covering Mistresses, Boss & Employees, Farmer’s Daughters & Victorian brides as well as the Cathouse.
Oh and that sub 15 year in politically correct feminist age difference “Trophy Wife” rule… Well that is just jealous feminists setting the bar. European & American political leaders don’t follow it, & more importantly the leaders/founders of the World’s Religions don’t follow it & the God of Nature & foundation of Western Civilization doesn’t follow it (Yahweh, Joseph & Mary; Mohammed & Aisha & slave girls, Abraham & Hagar, David & Bathsheba & Abishag)… in fact they would send you to a hot place in hell for opposing them on this matter.
http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html
I’ve noted above that PA annoys me only twice per year and its 50/50 in terms of who starts the arguments. I”l also note that one can go to the “Married Men Are Stupid” thread to see where he said, less than a week ago, that the reason why men over 40 might as well get married is because their testosterone drops. If he wasn’t talking about his own experience, he was talking out of his ass.
And he did promote Perry and Bachmann in a few comments when they were polling well. He’d obviously want to deny that now.
Since PA now wants to pretend he doesn’t have a social conservative agenda to try to influence the manosphere on things like what constitutes a men’s rights issue or not, downplays his desire to see men regulated (IMBRA) and jailed (AoC) and just presented a revisionist history of our two year disagreement, I’ll put things in a more credible perspective:
Five years ago, in April 2007, what would become the most popular PUA blog was born with a great post by what is now Heartiste (the Chateau) saying (paraphrase) “I’d be a good social conservative and get married young, but because the feminists have taught all the good looking women to fuck around and waste their youth, I guess I may as well be the guy who fucks them”.
This brilliant meme would have been taken by most men as being tongue and cheek about the social conservative part.
But PA took the social conservative part seriously and became a curious beast, like a Coelecanth, a rare American Socon who would agree that a man could indiscriminately have premarital sex and pump and dump women during his twenties and thirties, but he added that Heartiste and all PUAs really needed to retire from their PUA careers, like professional athletes, to get married before age 40. People silently let PA have his say. Heartiste focused on the youth market and didn’t speak out for guys over 40 at the time.
In fact, because Heartiste was dating women who knew about his blog, there was a very good reason for not wanting to appear to support or understand the mentality of men over 35.
PA would have been a pariah in real social conservative circles, but he found a home at the Chateau, mainly because the commenters were mostly really young and brash males, many of whom were OK with the idea of getting married at some point. PA owned the concept of what men over 35 should do with their lives.
That’s before real men over 35 entered the commentariat.
What’s interesting is that, until 2010, the Chateau was also infested with feminist trolls, many of whom were actually OK with the idea that men would service women their own age and then marry them. If PA ever touted 10 year age differences, that was not too much of a problem for the more “reasonable” feminists who would accept such a minor handicap despite their claims that men and women should be entirely equal.
As the senior commenter at the Chateau, PA presided over an atmosphere two years ago where:
1) Many of the young commenters had Asperger’s Syndrome and felt that being macho and being good at insulting others with quick jab ad hominems was the essence of being “alpha.”
I and others have completely changed the atmosphere there since then.
But it’s important to note that we changed the atmosphere that PA had presided over.
You can see where this is going…
2) Many of the young commenters thought that men were always wrong if things weren’t working out with a woman.
Things have changed on that front in the past 2 years, despite the fact that PA could have changed things himself in the first 3 years of the blog, but failed to do so.
And PA failed to do so because socons never really got it about feminism and have no clue about real human interactions.
3) Two years ago, many of the young commenters felt that older men should not compete with them for women their own age. In fact, there was downright hostility in much of the PUA scene toward the idea of a richer older men getting laid with the hottie that the poor young man wanted.
For 3 years, PA accommodated this nonsense and even promoted it, despite it being against his long term interest should his marriage not work out.
Guys like me had to come in two years ago and change the atmosphere and soon more guys over 40 joined the commentariat as PUAs.
Only now, in 2011, is it a given in the PUA community that younger men who decry the older male competition are just being weak and don’t understand human nature: that they themselves will soon be the older men poaching women from the clutches of their younger brethren.
4) This segways into the use of money: I had to get into some fierce flame wars at the Chateau as mostly feminist trolls but also aspergy young PUAs decried the concept that paying for a lapdance could possibly be something that an “alpha” would do.
Now most men love getting lapdances, but the PUA community was actually more in the feminist camp about that issue two years ago.
What some brash young PUA wannabees were really saying is that they didn’t want the use of cash to spoil an equilibrium that was in the favor of feminists and young poor males. Arguing about what was “alpha” was often just a way for people to divide along what they thought was in their interests.
I argued that young men had to stop looking out for their short term interests by letting the feminists divide them from older men.
In the summer of 2010, Heartiste finally put the paid sex matter to rest by declaring that an “alpha” could pay for sex as long as he could get it for free with an equally hot woman as well.
With that, I’d won an ideological battle against the lurking feminists and social conservative White Knighters like PA.
5) The PUA community two years ago was against the idea of lying to a woman. Feminists were OK with that. PA never tried to fight the meme. I did.
And I won, ideologically, on that score as well. Heartiste posted “When Fibbing is OK” shortly after I went to war on that point.
6) Finally, the PUA scene (the comment section of the Chateau) two years ago was very much against the idea that a man should leave the USA or England to date cool women and get laid or married. The idea was that the process of getting laid was more important than the end result or the quality of the woman. Since American and British women were harder to get than Russian or Chinese women, men who stayed home to game the home team were superior and more alpha than those who traveled (ran away).
They were using feminist logic of course. The feminist lurkers were very much OK with this.
PA supported this meme despite the fact that the blogger himself was saying the opposite and despite the fact that PA had married a “mail order bride” himself. There was a disconnect between the blogger and the commentariat. PA was pushing a meme that said his own actions had been inferior to the white nationalist ideal. WNs commonly hate themselves.
This is where our first argument happened.
No male has ever argued in favor of IMBRA in the history of the manosphere.
Except the White Knighter PA who took me on about that in February 2010.
It’s a big men’s rights issue.
PA lost that argument by backing down and another commenter noted that he had backed down.
However, I’ve just explained the conditions under which, late in a thread, PA and I mainly just argued between ourselves on that with nobody joining in on either side.
Not that PA would notice or remember other people disagreeing with him.
I gave PA the link to the Chateau thread on IMBRA and asked him to try to defend the law there. He was scared to do that.
Next time Heartiste mentions IMBRA or the Age of Consent, I’ll be sure to ask PA to present his opinion at the top of the comment thread.
The coward will be nowhere to be seen.
What’s bizarre is that PA is admitting that he always takes the side where the overwhelming support is on the opposite side.
And then he says that he gets encouraged when only one person argues with him and the others remain silent and the bloggers let him have his troll opinions.
He doesn’t get the message when bloggers are polite to his face but publish my material (or identical rhetoric) as separate posts.
I’ve also noted that, in reality, I’ve taken 5 or 6 positions at the Chateau where many were against me and I had to reason my way into getting my position accepted as the norm over there. The biggest example was in getting the PUA community to see an interest in the MRA issue of stopping feminists from criminalizing men for paying for sex.
One doesn’t get changes made without bumping heads. It doesn’t make long term enemies. Even if it does, it’s worth making sure the PUA scene is in line with the MRA scene and that the MRA scene isn’t coopted by the likes of PA.
The feminist trolls at the Chateau disappeared over the past two years as they failed to hold on to the memes that were acceptable to them.
One White Nationalist who argued with me that a man shouldn’t have sex with a Japanese girl if her brother disapproved, never came back to the forum.
Also: While 90% of what I post anywhere on the Internet is as “Anonymous”, Heartiste quotes me in a post once per month or writes a post based on my recommendation of the topic.
Heartiste recently wrote that one of the reasons he continues to blog is because of letters like “this one” and he reprinted a letter I’d written to him.
So obviously my writing style isn’t a problem.
@PA
It’s high time you grow up and recognize that, every time you argue with me, the bloggers soon post more and more material that defends my point.
Your words crystallize the definition of Socon White Knighter.
You’re becoming an anachronism and it’s sad that you’ve got your head in the sand when you try to pretend you’re dealing with your intellectual inferior.
You had a position of power by default as the lead commenter at the Chateau for years. But the blogger now agrees with you less and less as can be seen by the newer posts there. It doesn’t matter that the blogger wants to avoid clashing with you personally and that he asked me once not to push him into directly dealing with you and your strange opinions.
You have learned not to say stupid things as much.
I’ve noted we only clash once every six months.
Let’s try to make that number lower by you making fewer remarks about prison terms and violence for men who like sex.
In short, it’s pathetic that PA tries to win an argument by saying “I was wrong but nobody joined you in arguing against me”.
Men just want their right not to be regulated and jailed because of new laws. They don’t count the number of people who fail to join an argument on the side they agree with. Let’s get real.
Also, I should repeat that whenever Heartiste posts about the need to stop the feminists from raising the age of consent in new states, the faggot does not disagree with him in the comment section below that.
PA avoids confrontation with Heartiste like a scared raccoon.
I just wrote a reply to Jerry, which didn’t post.
@PA
Regarding the substance and not the style:
If I were to see Ferd or Heartiste post something that was very much against what I felt the men’s rights movement stands for, I would directly confront Ferdinand or R and ask them what the hell they were doing.
If I wanted men in jail for certain behaviors and I saw Ferdinand allow post after post making the behavior appear innocent, I’d take it to him because wanting to jail other men is not something I’d take lightly.
If you think the MRM should push to raise the AoC instead of trying to stop the paedohysteria, then it must be bad news for you when you see these guys post the opposite material.
That’s all I’m saying. It’s a serious thing to state that you want violence, incarceration or regulation done to other men. If you feel that way, it stands to reason that you would make a serious attempt to ask the bloggers to stop turning the tide against you. You’d at least ask for equal time.
Don’t make casual remarks about such serious issues if you really don’t care one way or the other how it plays out in the manosphere.
Don’t avoid confrontation with the publishers of the material you disagree with and then boast about how manly it is that you only wanted to argue the important issue with someone you feel is unimportant and without influence in the manosphere.
Jerry,
I don’t get the impression PA is as interested in statutory rape laws as you are. Why do you need his approval of you and your lifestyle?
This is fun. For every one word I write, Jerry comes back with twenty words of obsessive dragon-fighting.
So you claim that Chateau liked some comment you made while trolling as Anonymous. Here, have a cookie.
I beat you at this game: Chateau wrote roughly four feature posts approvingly centered on a comment I made, plus regularly featured my remarks in Comment of the Month. But unlike you, I don’t have a daddy complex so I don’t normally “boast” of this. Which reminds me –it’s just weird of you to have a daddy complex… for guys who are 1/3 your age.
Here is where you and I have a failure of communication, Jerry. An intelligent man (like me, or the bloggers you passive-aggressively in turn hide behind, dictate their editorial priorities, and sic into fights) is like an orchestra. We understand things like tradeoffs, contradictions, and various sides of an argument; all of that coordinated into a complex but coherent worldview.
You, on the other hand, are a one-note instrument, like a kazoo. You see me express a social conservative opinion and you screech “socon,” as though I were the despicable Bill Bennett. You lack scope, and you lack an ability to understand apparent contradictions. Which aren’t really contradictions, but rather views on something that’s too complex for your powers of comprehension.
Let’s go back to the bloggers, shall we? In his Then and Now series, Heartiste wrote “Then: Poor, yet dignified, with strong family and community bonds.” (h/t GLP). Oh noes! R wrote ‘family!!!!!! and ‘community!!’ Socon! SoCon!
Or, as another example of contradictions that are innate to the human condition, Heartiste wrote about how he, very generously, stopped seeing a woman upon learning that she is married to a beta guy. Later though, his id trumped his generosity and he let the woman, now reconciled with her husband, see him.
Did your head explode yet?
Or Ferd: he links to and lets all kinds of views be aired on his blog, from WNs to anti-white-haters. From Austrians to hardline socialists. He even used to let Osbdian post here. Those aren’t a random aggregation of disparate opinions; all who write for IMF are parts of a larger, coherent commonality that obtuse, one-note instruments like you are confounded by.
To pick up on just another argument you make: you’re telling young men to let viagara-dick old men fuck their girls. “Here boy, it’s for your good-you can finally start fucking hotties when you’re my age.” This makes you just like those despicable entitled Baby Boomers who will suck every last bit of wealth from the younger generation, leaving behind no contribution, just a waste land of their sterile, parasitic passing through this world.
@Remo
I only like lions,circus tigers who jump through fire hoops, and snow leopards but I’ll buy my own thanks. Shouldn’t you be hanging out in a high school parking lot trying to pick up 16 year olds instead of making ignornant comments? I’ve had plenty of me time and accomplished most of what I want out of life at a very young age. Not to be snippy but it’s know of your business whether I do or don’t have or want childern. The best milk doesn’t come from cows it comes from goats or coconuts fyi. Humans are the only animal that drinks milk after infancy even though it’s not always digested properly.
The troll just wrote what it thinks of all men over 40 with that last line. The false framing and obfuscation above, might have sounded reasonable to a casual observer up until that line (by the way, he made it sound like Heartiste isn’t moving away from him ideologically and that his comments get featured in posts there more than mine, which is demonstrably false – plus I’ve gotten Heartiste to post rants against new laws raising the age of consent).
And this hatred of all men over 40 is what makes him say that he wants men imprisoned and castrated for having sex with young women, along with agreeing with the feminists that the IMBRA law was the right thing to do (IMBRA forces US citizens to provide background checks to all foreigners before being allowed any contact with them).
And this is why I’m shocked bloggers don’t challenge him.
Bloggers should understand that the worst trolls are the ones that write 9 reasonable things and then insert the knife on the main ideology once and then go back and write 9 reasonable things. Rinse, repeat.
In the last argument I had with PA over at the Chateau, 3 other men questioned PA’s testosterone level.
PA’s bad attitude about men over 40 is far worse than K saying that game doesn’t work or anyone saying that Jews need to beaten up.
For feminists and White Knighters (manginas if their wives aren’t hot), stopping older men from getting with younger women is the Prime Directive (it’s OK for a man to be only 10 years older but not 15+).
We’e got a troll pushing the feminist Prime Directive but denying it and covering it up with 9 reasonable comments to every business comment.
He’s now clearly stated that he’s encouraged by bloggers not challenging him and tries to frame it as if they have “better things to do” or are “intelligent” for not letting him know that his views on men are repugnant (that men over 40 are parasitic, men seeking foreign women need to be regulated, etc).
If any man over 40 is reading this, behold PA: a coddled anti-male immigrant from a non first world country who thinks he’s an “American paleoconservative,” who somehow got entrenched as a regular commenter over at Heartiste’s in the days before informed men showed up around two years ago and started to infuse MRA memes into the PUA ideology, which involved reversing more than half a dozen pro-feminist PUA memes.
PA has repeatedly shown he has a disgusting vision of all men older than himself (parasitic, in need of drugs, etc). One has to assume he has the mind of a feminist and thinks this general way about all men. I’ve been noting for years that this really does make him a troll, not being a social conservative per se.
(he’s supposedly late 30s or 40 and married to a woman only 10 years younger who I have to assume is aging so fast that he’s furious about other men’s lifestyles).
@PA
Heartiste is still very immature and I would blame him as much as you for his comment section being ideologically wrong two years ago, except, unlike you, he learned and he changed.
The number of readers he gets per day is what made me work on those changes. While I think he’s very smart, he’s got aways to go before I’d consider him mature.
And I don’t believe Heartiste has scored a 17 year old recently, which would explain why he still tolerates you.
Plus, his increase in readership could have a lot to do with the better commenters over the past two years.
I’ve directly confronted him when I disagreed, which is something you are afraid to do. You’re framing that your lack of guts to confront the publication of material that seriously works against your “rights as a father to own your 17 year old child” as if that’s manly. It’s isn’t.
You are a coward for not saying “Ferdinand, who the hell is Giovanni and why did you let this garbage get published”.
Your excuse that you “like reading well-written” material you disagree with, doesn’t hold water. For someone hanging out for 5 whole years in the manosphere, you’d have to be hurting by seeing the manosphere work against you.
In our last argument over at the Chateau, it was 4:1 against you. @ItsMe and @N/A and @XSplat joined me in noting that you couldn’t possibly have a drop of testosterone in you for having such a hateful view of men over 40.
You had Lara on your side. But having women on your side doesn’t count. The fact that she mysteriously shows up to defend you EVERY.SINGLE.TIME is irrelevant.
Speaking of your love for a daddy figure: It’s pathetic that you’ve been spent 5 years hanging around Heartiste while he gets older and, naturally, swerves away from you in his own interest as a man getting into middle age. He’s leaving you behind.
What the fuck does that make you? Answer: Possibly a very intelligent female who is approaching middle age and has the opposite interests of Heartiste.
Since you aren’t attracted to young women anymore and you don’t really care so much about men’s rights (your own words after 5 years hanging around daily in the manosphere), maybe you’d be happier commenting over at an anti-immigration blog.
The irony wouldn’t be lost on me, with you commenting on an anti-immigration blog.
Meanwhile, I repeat:
Don’t make casual anti-male remarks about serious issues like the one Giovanni presented if you really don’t care one way or the other how it plays out in the manosphere.
Don’t avoid confrontation with the publishers of the material you disagree with and then boast about how manly it is that you only wanted to argue the important issue with someone you feel is unimportant and without influence in the manosphere.
@Ferdinand
Please read that last paragraph of PA.
Forget his frame that you supposedly have better things to do and that it’s manly for the two of you to ignore each other.
Aren’t those the words of a troll or not?
Or does your being still under 30 make those words academic for you?
@Ferdinand
And let’s make this clear: The above isn’t my argument or a personal feud.
That last paragraph shows a burning hatred for all normal men who age past 40.
It crosses a line many feminists wouldn’t cross and it isn’t remotely a case of someone jerking someone else’s chain.
The troll has directly stated that he’s encouraged by your neutrality in his views of older men being parasites.
Obtuse again, Jerry. I respect old men. I was referring to your attitude that young guys have to step aside and let old guys have their girls. That attitude is parasitic.
Not only hatred for men over 40, but also with disgusting implications that all women in a certain age group are somehow the property of those men who are in that age-group.
“To pick up on just another argument you make: you’re telling young men to let viagara-dick old men fuck their girls.”
Jerry was talking about age difference rather than adultery, so it really looks like PA’s talk about “their” girls is about some fucked-up “right” to ALL women who share a random characteristic (in this case age) with the entitled bastard.
First it was fathers, now young men. In both cases, PA really doesn’t seem to be fond of letting women chose their partners. And no, him replying with empty insults instead of arguments really doesn’t help his case.
You’re a fucking idiot, a pedophile and maybe a “rapist”. Look around the world – the countries where young teens reproduce unchecked are certainly the worst places not the best. I’m sure Africa has one of the highest rates of ten pregnancy. What an idiot you are. Sounds like rationalization from an old man for why he can’t land a decent chick he likes. Disgusting.
Tell us how you really feel bob.
And what is it with those last two idiots falling back on feminist arguments?
@Bob
Your logic is off. Logically, it would mainly be men for whom the AoC issue is not an academic question, that would confront the manginas who help the feminists get these new laws passed the likes of which were not passed in 6000 years of civilization.
In fact, I’ve stated that I doubt Ferdinand or Heartiste has had sexual activity with a 17 year old in recent memory precisely because they tolerate PA (won’t directly tell him what they think of his ideas).
I’ve stated that any man who dates college students, which is easy for some men in their forties and fifties, is in danger of being tricked by a 17 year old about her being 18. Thus, no man who could get an 18 year old would be OK with AoC laws.
Men need a buffer. Any man for whom this isn’t academic, would know that.
And disgusting comments describing older men as parasitic animals doesn’t belong on the manosphere unchallenged by the bloggers themselves.
PA hangs around too much at the world’s most popular game forum because he’s probably torn between his aging wife (hitting the wall at 29 or 30) and what to him is a subversive wish to fuck a 16 year old himself.
In any event, he doesn’t have the guts to state that he would work with a feminist group to get a law passed in his home state. PA would obviously get in a car and drive five miles or more to work with a “women’s organization” to regulate men.
That’s where he’d be a traitor to his adopted country.
And I spelled out the dynamic of this kind of treason in an essay on the “Christian Feminist Alliance” last year that was paraphrased by Heartiste in his famous “Assange Fake Rape Hoax” post and which was posted in it’s entirety by Ferdinand here at IMF.
But, because PA’s spent five years at the world’s most popular PUA forum commenting about how he games his now-aging wife, in order to hold on to her (as if that should be hard for a guy with a heartbeat), he personally gets a pass as not having become an anachronistic troll.
Despite almost everyone thinking differently and despite commenters over at Heartiste like N/A and ItsMe and Xsplat wondering how PA could have a drop of testosterone in his/her body.
Heartiste did directly tell PA that, if he was single, he couldn’t compete for young women with his attitude.
Anyway, I’ll take time off from the debate to go on a lunch date with a 19 year old.
Thank God that’s still legal everywhere.
Translation: Jerry is orbiting a 48yo divorcee, who keeps him smitten with GFE-niceness like baking him pies. So he’s buying her and her daughter lunch.
One big advantage of Western societies, is that women do get to pick their own husbands, within reason. I think women are lucky that most men are okay with that. Possibly because men prefer to be with women who want to be with them, rather than have to be.
“commenting about how he games his now-aging wife”
I don’t remember PA talking about that. I think that’s someone named Dave from Hawaii.
“You had Lara on your side”
I don’t always like or agree with what PA writes. It’s just that you so totally misquote him, that I do feel the need to point out how dishonest you are being.
Jerry,
You are taking things that I remember at least 5 or 6 commenters other than PA saying on Roissy’s site, and attributing them all to PA.
It seems PA stayed up real late in the night in his fevered quest to win this argument.
I was out enjoying myself. It’s Christmas vacation and all the college girls are home from vacation.
But an unhappily married man can only stew in his sour juices by his computer late into the night.
On the way to the date earlier, I was concerned that the disgust of having been in the online presence of a mangina would somehow skew my game and on a first date (men are forced to continually date new women because others in the MLTR lose their looks fast or they die of cancer like my ex – none of this is funny and none of it is a man’s fault).
But I needn’t have worried because, in the presence of the highest SMV (sexual market value) women, instinct kicks in. The conversation was lively.
One important thing: There’s no way that a real man is going to think that a 19 year old female belongs in any way to 19 year old men.
At one point in the conversation I spent three minutes discussing American feminism and gauging her lack of interest in it.
I said “Here’s an english word for you: Mangina, the definition of which is an older man who assumes that beautiful young women belong to men their own age; that younger men deserve her more”.
She laughed and then she said “You know this is so true and the men who say this are always the uglier old guys, the defeatists with big guts or they’re gaunt from smoking themselves into old age fast. They don’t believe it’s possible for them and they pretend it’s not possible at all.”
The thing is, 19 year old girls already know guys like PA.
When he becomes single again in his late forties, he won’t be able to score women under 30.
And the best women over 30 won’t date a guy who clearly can’t date women under 25. That’s the kicker here.
PA doesn’t realize that his bad attitude will hurt him in getting women over 30, notwithstanding Lara’s online support for him.
He needs to understand “preselection”: a 35 year old female 8 will want the male who can score the 22 year old female 9.
As Heartiste said, PA would have no chance with a young woman in the presence of a so-called “libertine” (a guy with a better attitude).
PA once said something rational, when Heartiste showed a video of a stadium filled with Estonian girls he wrote something like “If I had my way, I would have all of those women and let no other man have them”.
That may have been the only moment of honesty from him.
All he has to do is admit he wants a harem of young Estonian women (should he lose his wife), and then he’d be cool.
Being honest about what he really wants is all a man has to do.
And Lara: It doesn’t help PA that a nice late 30s woman defends him EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. You’re nice and all that. But only he must think it helps his case to have a woman over 35 defend his attitude.
That’s nothing against you at all. It’s just not helping him.
And, no, I haven’t confused him for anyone else or lied or misunderstood.
Here’s a great example of a young female telling a 42 year old male that he’s the kind that doesn’t have the guts to go for it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q5u8PvlOzw&t=4m18s
Too many American guys fail to realize what’s really going on in the minds of young women, because they’ve swallowed the feminist idea that they are naturally disgusted by older men. The young woman in this video wants an older guy who at least has the guts to go for it.
Jerry, PA,
Your attitude really sucks. Both of you. You make yourselves look bad.
Let’s see…
When most all 40, 50, 60 & 70Something CEO’s & businessmen & most all politicians & “alphabet agency employees” & for that matter most trade show conventioneers call in for an escort/hooker or lapdancer or a woman on his arm from all over the World from Donald Trump on down… you think they’re calling in to send a 40 or 50something young enough to be his daughter?… that is, when they’re not calling in underage boys & girls for blackmail operations thru gangsters or shadow government black budget operations for themselves?
Half of the Men in the USA wish they was 80something Hugh Hefner with his late teen & 20something college girl harems. Probably half the women between the age of 12 and 39 would sleep with 60something Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones (& plenty of other geriatric celelebrities both Rock n’Roll & Hollywood). Even Elvis, America’s standard bar of sensitive Masculinity had 14, 15, 16 & 17 year old young schoolgirls throwing themselves at him while he & the boys were filming them 69′ing & diddling with the wine bottles. Even a member of at one time the most famous Rock group in the World was debating a femiservative mangina “clergyman” on National radio on “Backward Masking” and admitted that half of the thousands of young women he got randy with were under 15 years of age (backstage wannabe groupie sluts) when he was in his mid twenties to mid thirties… and further commented “No parent has the right to tell their 14 year old daughter who to have sex with”. Half of all Junior High 12 to 14 year old young women just as readily suck the cock of College “Boys”/Just graduated College “Boys” aged 18-25 as their own Middle School classmates & could probably function as walking sperm banks with a different DNA sample everytime they burped.
Welcome to the real world in 2011. And a healthy sized minority of 12 to 14 year old young women will even still run after the guy in his mid to late thirties with his own pad, sports car etc.. that can serve them drinks & wine & dine them… and at minimum suck his cock without a thought crossing their little sweet mind.
Even Jane Fonda’s first time at around age 17 was an arrangement that she premeditatedly groomed with a suave thirtysomething European ladiesman
because she didn’t want her 1st time to be with a 17 year old horny, fumbling, clumsy male schoolmate.
Gentlemen,
As a thorough-going nihilist, let me assure you all that the only transcendent experience I recognize as real is banging teenagers, or “women” small and cute enough to resemble them. Your denial is a product of resentment morality. You haven’t lived until you’ve jizzed on a sixteen year old’s unblemished cheeks.
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