Over the weekend, I got into another brouhaha with the head-in-the-sand wing of the alt-right blogosphere, this time at OneSTDV’s. One, a man who has no intention of marrying and starting a family, thinks he can chastise Roosh and other manosphere expats for… not marrying and starting families:
Oh yea, add the eXiled to that list as perhaps they best illustrate this juvenile abdication of adulthood and responsibility. In essence, all of these “man travel” bloggers lash out at society indiscriminately, bashing all women, everything about Amerika, and everyone who seeks value in middle-class responsibility and family. According to travel bloggers, these “boring” individuals are drones imposed upon by our horrible society, while a foreign land full of underage hookers, loads of drugs, and other uppity expats apparently has something better to offer. Basically, these people believe finding love and raising a family is less spiritually uplifting than whatever else is out there. I present the dichotomy as such because it’s really the truth of it – these “male travelers” seek anything but here, without consideration that “here” can offer something worthwhile if one looks properly.
But this isn’t about One, but rather the contention I made in the comments that getting married is the equivalent of getting a lobotomy, if you happen to be a man. A few years back, the New English Review published an article that showed that a disproportionate amount of the West’s most influential thinkers, innovators and artists were bachelors. Here’s a sampling from the list:
Ludwig van Beethoven
Johannes Brahms
Giacomo Casanova
Frederic Chopin
Nicolaus Copernicus
Eugène Delacroix
Rene Descartes
Gustave Flaubert
Galileo Galilei
Edward Gibbon
Vincent van Gogh
The personal lives of these great men varied wildly — Flaubert visited prostitutes, Galileo had children out of wedlock, and Isaac Newton probably died a virgin — but the one commonality between them is that they never tied the knot. (I specify marriage here because it ties a man down in a way that long-term relationships and the like don’t. One anklebiter at OneSTDV’s tried to claim that Galileo only belonged on that list because of a technicality, but having a mistress bear your kids is not the same thing as having a wife — a man can up and leave at any time, and since bastardy and extramarital sex were frowned upon, the existence of the mistress and children has to be kept under wraps.)
Even the great men who DID marry didn’t live the white picket fence and 2.5 children in the suburbs lifestyle that CONservatives idealize. It’s axiomatic that writers, actors and musicians are always divorcing and remarrying because they’re incapable of sustaining normal relationships. Happy families in Hollywood are as rare as family values. Even scientists were known for their wanton ways. Richard Feynman was a notorious lothario and wrote an essay about how to pick up women at bars. Erwin Schrodinger had numerous affairs with the consent of his wife. Despite his popular image as a goofy geek, Albert Einstein was married twice and cheated on both of his wives numerous times. Very few of these men had a normal or socially approved love life.
There’s also scientific evidence proving that marriage is detrimental to a man’s drive and intellect:
But, regardless of age, the great minds who married virtually kissed goodbye to making any further glorious additions to their CV.
Within five years of making their nuptial vows, nearly a quarter of married scientists had made their last significant contribution to history’s hall of fame.
“Scientists rather quickly desist (from their careers) after their marriage, while unmarried scientists continue to make great scientific contributions later in their lives,” says Dr Kanazawa.
The energy of youth and the dampening effect of marriage, he adds, are also remarkably similar among geniuses in music, painting and writing, as well as in criminal activity.
I’ve even got anecdotal evidence. Here’s a song from Lou Reed’s 1980 album Growing Up in Public, recorded just before he married Sylvia Morales (lyrics here):
I don’t have a definitive answer to why marriage annihilates a man’s will to power, but I have a few theories.
1) Having a woman (and kids) around saps a man’s energy.
No matter who you are, having a girlfriend, wife, fuck-buddy or any relationship with a woman requires mental exertion. Women are inherently uncreative and unimaginative creatures — having to listen to their nattering day in and day out kills brain cells. This intelligence mismatch forms the basis of Danger & Play’s argument that interesting men shouldn’t waste time dating women they’re trying to fuck:
Take a look at your book shelf. Inspect the spine of each book. How many female names do you see?
How many women write blogs that you read?
It’s not that you’re biased, either. Ninety percent of the top blogs are male authored.
Although 50% of lawyers are women, almost no woman has anything interesting to blog about.
G.L. Piggy makes a similar point:
This makes perfect sense to anyone who pays attention to reality. A greater portion of women’s lives are spent talking about their relationships – which naturally includes their relationships with men. Women are generally more feeling and personal. They gossip more than men, and gossip is centered on intimate relationships. Men’s lives are mostly boring too, but if and when we do something that isn’t boring, there’s a greater chance that it won’t involve something to do with the opposite sex – a statement that is less true for women.
The harpies at feminist watering holes like Jezebel love to crow about how smart and educated they are, but their interests are completely trivial — celebrity gossip, romance novels and the like. Granted, there are plenty of loser men obsessed with sports and video, but there’s no female equivalent to the manosphere — a group of alienated men seeking to better themselves physically and mentally and fight injustice. Feminists claim that the dearth of female contributions to art, science and culture are due to EVIL PATRIARCHAL OPPRESSION, but more likely it’s because very few women have anything interesting to say.
2) The type of personality that would lead a man to great innovations also leads him to reject societal conventions.
This is the cum hoc ergo propter hoc explanation. The idea that anyone can perfectly compartmentalize their life is a fantasy — different portions will inevitably into the others. Someone who is inclined to question and deny conventional wisdom in one arena is likely to do so in another.
A year ago, I read this explanation used in regard to WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange, though I don’t remember where. The theory was that Assange’s prickish, indefensible personal behavior — his stealing other mens’ girlfriends in front of them, his primadonna preening, that stupid haircut — was an inevitable side effect of his mission of pissing off governments worldwide. In contrast, Daniel Domscheit-Berg, Assange’s former sidekick, is a monogamous twerp and a complete wuss:
Dickhead or not, at least Assange can deal with pressure. He’d rather go fugitive, sleep rough and live on his wits than surrender his servers. This is the guy I’d trust in a guerrilla war campaign, the old “inflict-and-endure.” Compare that with Domscheit-Berg, who claims to give homelessness a try for half a year before running to his fiancee’s doorstep. Even his tolerance for messy hotel rooms is much lower than any of Assange’s other lackeys.
In other words, a pussy. But aggressively marketing his pussy-ness, with the goal not so much of making the reader like Domscheit-Berg, as in trying to peel away Assange’s crucial left-progressive supporters.
3) Married men are less inclined to take risks because their families need them to stick around.
When others depend on you to stay alive, you’re not going to gamble your career or life unnecessarily. But if you DON’T take risks, you’ll never break out of the mold that is mediocrity and obscurity. Men without wives and children can go where others can’t precisely because their lives are totally their own — only they will lose out if their adventures blow up in their faces.
While I don’t know why married men lose their mojo, the evidence is clear — only mediocre, average men should propose to a woman. If you have even a glimmer of brains or talent though, stay single and tell the finger-waggers to stuff it.
{ 62 comments… read them below or add one }
Mate, do you stand for anything? Have any principles at all?
Fuck me…
Having a family changes a man’s approach to risk.
A girl I knew once told me the story of how her father used to be a wild man who would take all kinds of physical risks. Then he was up at a cottage cliff jumping with his buddies, a month after she was born. He looked up at the cliff that he had already jumped off of hundreds of times, and just said, “Nope. I’m not taking any risk of my daughter growing up without a father.” Of course her parents then divorced and she grew up without a father for many years, hence the part in the story where we met, but I don’t think that part is relevant to the metaphor.
Marriage also clouds the mind with previously unnecessary crap. House payments, worrying about kids, what color will my wife let me paint the guest bathroom, will I get a handy tonight, do I have to watch Desperate Housewives again, will she bitch about getting a minivan over dinner, etc…
How can you focus on the things that used to be on your agenda when marriage imposes so much spurious, unnecessary, and trivial stuff into your thoughtspace?
The greatest Shogi (Japanese chess) player in modern times, Habu, was relentless in sweeping and holding all seven professional titles. No one could beat him. Other Shogi players were quoted as wishing he would get married soon. Well, he did, and his number of held titles dropped to just one or two. He made it back up to three (four?) briefly, and then stagnated again. No one views him as unbeatable now. Strong, yes, but not unbeatable.
No need to guess why. Scientifically proven reason:
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/09.19/01-testosterone.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/research/13testosterone.html?_r=1
The real truth is men arent meant to be monogamous, men are biologically polygamous
The whole point of marriage is to protect dry, infertile women, into old age, at the expense of the male, who remains fertile up to the age of 70 & over
If anything game & pua has shown, women hate monogamous men, they want pre-selected alpha’s ie wanted by other women
As women are insane status whoring sluts
Which is why marriage is hell for the average male, as the chick spends most of the marriage running shit tests, & fitness testing the poor guy to death, as he can no longer demonstrate he’s a pre-selected alpha, ie wanted by other women
Also theres the other problem with women, they’re biologically designed to want to be in a harem, hence they’re hypergamy, need for pre-selection, need for large immediate nuclear family, not to mention they’re insane need for status whoring
None of which are satisfied in a monogamous marriage …
Monogamous is a disaster for men, as monogamous marriage was the earliest form of social engineering
Monogamous marriage is Designed to reduce the number of children a male could have, by forcing him to stay with a single woman, using social acculturation & social peer pressure, past the point of the womans fertility into her old age
ie Society used concepts such as honour & duty to society to shame & punish men into marrying single women, well past her ability to be fertile
In short marriage was the earliest form of contraception, radically reducing the amount of children a male could have, effectively neutering the guy once the woman is past her ability to be fertile, & the guy is stupid enough
Nobody likes monogamous marriage, it destroys a mans natural masculinity, & women hate not being part of an alpha’s harem …
Of course women & mangina’s swallow the lies & pills of cultural brainwashing the hardest
Women & mangina’s along with other narrow minded, mind addled conservatives, ie most ppl who believe in the need for politics, & essentially worship politicians & political parties as some sort of saviour, for all of society’s problems, always end up being firm believers in concepts which go against their biology …
The way i see it, monogamy does us all a huge favour, by taking the above gullible sheeple idiots out of the gene pool
Oh yea, add anti-gamers to that list …
I think the commenter ADS summed up the REAL dichotomy:
“Looking at it economically, the choice of consuming experiences now vs investing in the future, has gotten a LOT more attractive compared to earlier decades.”
“Juvenile abdication of adulthood and responsibility” is more than just not getting married. In fact, many married people out there seem to be just as capable of “juvenile abdication of adulthood and responsibility” as anyone else.
The “great men” you mention ultimately had a stake in something.
This is why the Catholic Church is rigid with celibacy…
But, it’s not that bad Ferds. Not all of us are destined for greatness, though the great rely on us for their worship. After all, who would read your upcoming book if we were all out doing great things?
Oh, and btw, you have no idea what I feel like in the morning. That was just an inkling, a sliver of sight you had. Nothing compares to the horrors I have seen.
While I don’t know why married men lose their mojo
They go from twenty-somethign to forty-something?
Do newly-divorced men regain their mojo? not rhetorical.
I hereby invite all of these extraordinary, brave single men to start doing the incredible things they seem to imagine they’re capable of: I’m not married and neither were these great logicians, therefore I’m probably a better logician than a married guy.
That’s sound, no?
Some extraordinary male creativity may preclude those men from marriage, but choosing not to marry isn’t going to make anyone more interesting or smart or capable.
The cause of reduction in male energy isn’t marriage, it’s age ( testosterone begins to fall around 30, brain has developed fully, novelty/ sensation seeking desire wanes).The men who use marriage as a pretext to go soft were always soft.What’s more common is that some men can’t quite figure out how to continue creativity after the sensation seeking that described creativity to them as young men abates.
How many geniuses were married?
I’m much more satisfied with my mind as I head toward middle age; more objective and sober, less likely to feel that rush of rocks tar fantasy, but glad those delusions are gone, so I can get down to the real work I know I’m capable of.
Let’s not forget how women work.
Her status monkey is working 24/7.
Genius requires going against accepted thought at least a little, and sometimes a lot.
This can effect Status Monkey’s Status, at least in the short term.
Genius can require doing things without an immediate cash payout.
Sounds like a clear and present danger to Status Monkey getting a new pair of shoes to show off to other women.
And the woman is not going to shut up about the needs of her status monkey, oh no, Oprah says the needs of her little child, her status monkey, are every bit as important as that of a real child.
Really, she is just being a good mother.
Btw, your single male genius dna’s are going nowhere if you don’t father.Caring for children can be a bore, but it rewards on a level I couldn’t have imagined.Far from making me soft, it allowed me to see many unvarnished truths and forced me to deal with reality in a way I never would , had I chosen to remain in rockstar fantasy land ( efficiency apartment).
Not only in marriage, generally men are reserving a part of (Some times exactly a half) their lives for women, but present women do not do that like men are doing so. So that is the biggest stupidity of men.
http://spiritofnature99.blogspot.com/
“While I don’t know why married men lose their mojo”
The answer is prolactine.
Men do everything they do in order to get laid IV:
Why does marriage settle men down?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200807/men-do-everything-they-do-in-order-get-laid-iv
I’m in a STEM field and at least in the academic side there are quite a few accomplished women. Their spawn are handed off to day care within minutes of the cord-cutting, of course.
Downside, they expect the special mommy perks when they can get them and dump extra work on the males. Upside, they are less likely to shiv you for a buck.
Some of what you sons of bitches say is most likely true, but I’d like to offer an alternative view: I find that monogamy actually ALLOWS me to focus more on expanding my creativity and pursuing greatness without having most of my time consumed by the tedium of chasing tail 24/7.
Of course, I don’t have children, so that might change things.
In addition, Ferd, all of those on your list, with the exception of Van Gogh, Brahms, Beethoven, and possibly Chopin contributed nothing but abject bullshit to our world. Especially that slimy little weasel Descartes.
Two great literary figures who were also married: Dostoevsky and Walter Scott.
oh yeah, and Darwin was also.
A couple of points:
1. Given the intellectual diversity and potentiality of men, marriage may suit some but not others. It’s hard to paint marriage or married men with one brush. Some men benefit by marrying. ‘Settling down’ is good for them in a lot of ways. For other men, a marriage might detract from their works. It’s all about managing energy the right way.
Depending on the man we’re dealing with, bachelorhood could either help a man focus on his work and make great art, or it could lead him from focusing his energies on worthwhile projects.
2. Pertaining to One’s post, men who go around trying to get laid – either in foreign countries or domestically – aren’t overly creative nor do they have the free energy to produce great works. When you devote your time and energy to others in any capacity, your attention is diverted from the task at hand. Roosh was wise enough to pair his passion with his creation.
But what PA said above has merit.
Youth is associated with creative energy. During their formative years, younger men have a lot of loose ideas careening around in their skulls. They are like beaten eggs in a silver bowel – they are whisked up in a frenzy and have the potential to do anything.
But creative output today – at least in the sciences – is less dependent on wild-eyed genius which was once the case (Albert Einstein published his greatest work at the age of 26). Today, the best work requires all of that collated knowledge plus a creative spark. But the bar is now so high that the best scientists have to let all of that prior knowledge marinate while their “eggs” are being worked into a frenzy. Thus, the best work is being performed by scientists at later ages.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703444804575071573334216604.html
There are a few different effects moving in different directions. We have the bachelor effect, the marriage effect, the children effect, and the hormone (age) effect. Depending on the disposition of the man and his career field, field of study, or craft, those effects can work to improve the man’s output or they can hamper it.
Man is built to love, love is mean’t to flow. The bigger the man the more hot bitches it’s gonna flow in to. When it stops flowing, he stagnates.
Also, something something gay Jesus joke.
The whole point of marriage is to protect dry, infertile women, into old age, at the expense of the male, who remains fertile up to the age of 70 & over
No, the whole point of marriage is to protect the resulting children, so that they can grow up in a stable home in which the father’s polygamous instincts and the mother’s hypergamous instincts were kept in check to benefit the offspring.
I should say the whole point of marriage WAS to protect the resulting children from their parents following their base instincts.
We all know how that’s been changed in the past 50 years.
UlandK:
I never liked this argument. The single male genius’ DNA may not be going anywhere, but his ideas are. It’s limiting to look at a man’s legacy only in terms of what he uses his penis to produce. We should look at his complete portfolio to make the determination of how much he has contributed to the collective pool of humanity. The ideas that some of those bachelor geniuses developed were employed by later people and their offspring and their offspring, etc.
What Keoni said.
I did sacrifice a lot of things I would have liked to have done, to be married and raise a kid. But I am glad to have given those years to my kid. The investment is paying off. I grew up in a single parent household after the age of 11, and I wanted to break that cycle, and I did break that cycle. And it’s amazing how healthy and happy a child is when he or she grows up in a stable home environment, with their same 2 biological parents that were there from the beginning, no step-parents, no moving around, nobody moving out, nobody moving in (except maybe a mother in law or an aunt or uncle).
My mother in law lives with us and this forced my daughter to grow up speaking Russian. I purposely selected “a woman from the Old Country” (not my old country, which would be Ireland, England, Sweden and France) but a perfectly good Old Country.
If I could do it differently, I would be closer to a city so I could do my hobbies like martial arts without having to drive an hour. If you get married, don’t put yourself in a cultural desert or it’ll really be hell. Being in a city, you can keep your life more interesting and keep moving forward and learning things, even while having a family.
I admit to having been bored with married life. But it forced me to find things that were interesting. I found out that I can go to a state univeresity for free because of being a veteran, and going back to college to study science has made me so much happier.
And I will never regret raising my kid. In a way, I proved, at least to myself, that most modern American parents suck, because it doesn’t take much to raise a kid right. Modern White American parents don’t push their kids, so they are losing out in the Darwinian struggle that is life in the USA to Asians and Jews. I DESPISE that. I am disgusted with the modern American parents. I have a joke:
I found out that I’m only the second best father in the world. Here is number one father in world — Wolf Dad.
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/14/143659027/and-you-thought-the-tiger-mother-was-tough
Marriage is for fags. That said, AD is still a sperg.
I really appreciate this. Just this past couple weeks I’ve stumbled into a great feeling of freedom now that I’ve (somehow) set aside the constant obsession and worry about making myself acceptable to females. Now, I can live my life in a way that serves me, and helps me, and excites me. It’s the keys to the kingdom.
I don’t recommend marriage for anyone under 40, but over that age I can’t see why not.
In addition, Ferd, all of those on your list, with the exception of Van Gogh, Brahms, Beethoven, and possibly Chopin contributed nothing but abject bullshit to our world. Especially that slimy little weasel Descartes.
I’d basically agree with you, except to say that Van Gogh also basically contributed bullshit via graphical means. It was interesting bullshit that made him famous for being so different and weird, but it was still bullshit.
Rmaxd December 19, 2011 at 8:15 am
That is why haplotypism, or organizing around Y-chromosome, could be more succesful than WN or MRM. Starting polygynous, patriarchal cults mesh well with the patrilineal clan model. Men who convert can only marry women they themselves convert.
G.L Piggy: I dont think genius has anything to do with remaining single. I also think its silly for single men to talk about someday being able to do genius work; the vast, vast majority will not, and among those who do, marital status will make no difference.
You should have children as an end unto itself, genius or not.
Those who claim their own loss of testosterone and sex drive after 40 are speaking for themselves and making excuses. It takes a massive loss of T to lose the sex drive, so what’s really going on is the men let politics and ideology mess with their heads too much. They really want to do be leading the action here http://hostave4.net/hft/fhg/video/024dwmveer/photo/01b.jpg and just won’t admit this to others. So they’re lying, plain and simple.
You can have kids and see that they’re well raised, without being married or tied down to them all the time.
They won’t be well raised if you’re not committed to their mother.The institution of marriage isn’t some kind of construct meant to keep you down– you guys sound like feminists; It’s about achieving some kind of abstract “empowerment” as an individual, while the rest of society ought to either conform to your desires or get out of your way.There is no Rightism without the traditional family unit.
This posturing is so inane; If you really think not being married will allow you to bring genius to the world, go ahead and do it. The rest is just So much whining, so much insecurity.
Napoleon Hill’s theory would say it matters how the sexual energy is harnessed vs. if someone is married or not. Many married men have done great things especially in the theater of battle it is more the creative types who seem to create better without the weight of marriage holding them back.
um…
I don’t know if you don’t know, or care not to ..but Van Gogh wasn’t a “bachelor”.
He was miserable almost all the time, had hardly any real relationships, and certainly didn’t get laid a lot. He was probably not popular with the women because he was a struggling no-name artist in France and the bourgeoisies where the one women wanted…why? They had money and they were famous classical artist. He even regularly used prostitutes…
he was a hopeless romantic who was most likely suffering from schizoaffective disorder. C’mon. And mind you, he didn’t really start to become famous until he died.
If you have paradigm changing intelligence, any interaction with women is a massive waste. Particularly in your youth, where your mind is its most fluid and creative. Not that geniuses are all that social to begin with.
Simply, those who cannot do, fuck.
Anyone here would be deluded if they considered themselves part of that demographic. The people a few notches down realize the ineffectual instrument of marriage is no solution for preserving your favorable traits considering the hostile social environs and the looming genetic engineering revolution. So, the reasonable answer is to engage in pointless hedonism. Burying yourself in a biomechanical high to escape from the spirit eviscerating truth of your own uselessness to a modern (automated, globalized) society.
Uland K:
Modern Marriage is the traditional family unit?
Do you sometimes wonder, Uland, why people don’t take TradCons seriously?
Parfait Cathar:
Didya know that Jon Favreau, director of Iron Man, also played all the roles? THAT’S RIGHT, HE PLAYED TONY STARK! AND PIPER POTS!
The things they do with camera work these days!
And he designed all the costumes to! I bet you didn’t know that!
And he wrote the script! He is a real renaissance man!
Unlike the poster, who is an SWPL idiot.
Hows that dry sarcasm feeling now, skip?
A Proposal for defining the Feminist vs Anti-Feminist Problem
http://tiny.cc/fem-proposal
Married men are also mistreated in the workplace, especially while young. Employers know such men have no option but to suck it up and work like pack mules to support their wife and brats, so they make them work for little pay.
Let’s all agree that soft monogamy has been the right solution for thousands of years. That means that other guys need to at least pretend to be faithfully married. The individual himself needs to at least have an apartment or life of his own separate from the living quarters of his wife. A man doesn’t need to be with his kids 7 days a week to raise them well. That takes teamwork anyway. And he can do that with more than one set of kids.
The individuals who are in the know would never be more than 15% = the alpha community.
As long as the social conservatives allow for the existence of these guys and don’t try to be their mortal enemies, we’ll all get along just fine and could even be political allies against feminism.
@Kievsky
Looks like another whitewash of traditional child rearing… & they try & pass it off as child abuse …
The article states beatings, but he uses a feather duster on the palm of the hands …
“Any transgression earned the kids a beating with a feather duster, either on the legs or on the palm of the hand.”
Looks like even a simple smack with a feather duster is enough for liberals to hate their parents …
“He’s quoted as saying that he doubts he even had a childhood, and that he loves and hates his father at the same time.”
No such quotes are provided in the article ….
& a simple disciplinary even with a feather duster works wonders …
“He’s been doing the chat shows lately, laying out his system for getting three of his four kids into China’s top school, Peking University.”
Here was a comment posted on One’s blog…
“I personally think Ferd is to loser men what fat enabler friends are for fat people.
You can’t have a good woman? Don’t worry, its not your fault. Good women don’t exist.
Can’t find a suitable career? Again, not your fault. There are no good jobs anywhere in the whole wide world.
Have another double fudge sunday, you beautiful thing!”
Dear Ferdinand Bardamu,
Or should I say Isaac Newton…
Having broken free of the shackles that bind all men, as you march into the sunlight uplands of knowledge and discovery, surely the Nobel committee will be unable to restrain itself from conferring upon you several awards in multiple fields of endeavor.
You genius, you. Imagine if you had gotten married. We never would been bles’t with you brilliance!
Confirmation:
No interest from In Mala Fide and readers to:
Andrea Muhrrteyn (December 20, 2011 at 6:50 am)
A Proposal for defining the Feminist vs Anti-Feminist Problem
Uland K said:
“The men who use marriage as a pretext to go soft were always soft.”
I agree in a way.
Some [stupid] men get married for [stupid] reasons to [stupid] women. And it all creates this melange of stupidity and intellectual vacillation that most people watch happen on sitcoms (but the reality isn’t that funny, both people are miserable most of the time)
but sometimes even [smart] men get married for [stupid] reasons. We can mix up all those [smart] and [stupid] and [men] and [women]. Marriage itself isn’t stupid.
I think that if smart men married women who were also smart and actually acknowledged and actually LIKED the fact that their mate was smart and ambitious and a bit eccentric, and didn’t try to squelch this (and even encourage their spouses when they become too lax) for the sake of what another poster worded as the “monkey that wants shoes” (paraphrasing of course) then that’d be the marriage that would be smart.
This of course is the “good woman” whom you all seem to think is a Myth. I really, really, really hope this isn’t true…otherwise, I’m going to become celibate.
Marrying someone that doesn’t suit you isn’t smart. It’s stupid. You’ll pay for it, even if you love the person. And it might be worth it to you, it might not. Who’re we to tell them? But then again, I’m very sure a ton of men end up hating the women they originally loved because they start to kill the best parts of them soon after the knot is tied.
Marry smart, don’t marry at all, or just don’t complain.
Ferd, I can’t believe you skipped two of the greatest examples. Leonardo da Vinci and Nikola Tesla.
“Marriage is like putting your hand into a bag of snakes in the hope of pulling out an eel.” Leonardo da Vinci
I think another potential reason would be to do with mate seeking. If you accept that most human endeavour is ultimately for survival and reproduction (this is the basic premise of natural selection and evolutionary psychology), it would make sense that the great works of great men are driven, at least in part, by their mating instinct. This instinct is to display higher value, and these men do so by creating and discovering things of incredible value.
Once a man has found a mate, and reproduced with that mate, the same drive to DHV all the time will be drastically reduced. This could be add to the effect of marriage stifling men’s intelligence and creativity.
Uland K
“Btw, your single male genius dna’s are going nowhere if you don’t father.”
which is truer of women more than men and is more damning because unlike men they always pass on an X-chromosome.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-imprinted-brain/201002/identical-genetically-different-and-why-you-can-thank-your-mother-yo
which brings us to:
“I think that if smart men married women who were also smart ”
what’s the point of fathering an intelligent girl with a smart woman if she has more chances of remaining childless and hence the man’s genes are dead-ended?
“The institution of marriage isn’t some kind of construct meant to keep you down– you guys sound like feminists”
Feminists were right that the institution of marriage prevents women from achieving what they could achieve without it, i.e. a college education and a career that doesn’t end up a few years later when they become mothers.
Men who like working in new fields/hobbies that they like but are not mainstream and don’t pay well will/have always found family a hindrance in the pursuit of their dreams. I have seen many men choosing to be pragmatic about their lives, but why should they do so when there is nothing in it for them and they find themselves as being a woman’s safety-net once she comes to the realization that she has to be more pragmatic about her future than the Twilight script?
Asking women to support them is counter-productive, especially modern women who will find their own dreams squelched and are loathe to support a man on their own paycheck, rather than the other way round.
otoh women had this glorious opportunity to do some genius work, but they chose to follow in men’s footsteps instead of using the free time in domestic sphere. Now a large number of them end up childless while trying to catch up with the men and publishing studies pontificating about the performance gap. Neither genius, nor babies.
Behind every successful man there might be a woman, but before every successful woman there’s a man, guiding her along the way.
“while the rest of society ought to either conform to your desires or get out of your way.”
The society fucked up when it caved into feminists’ demand and took seriously the dreams of little girls who wanted to show that women can do everything that a man can. After being given every type of opportunity and incentive, they can barely do what men can, and their rhetoric keeps boiling down to “if we had more fathers taking care of children, it would reduce the disparity”.
And yet, despite their colossal fuck-up, people still keep complying. For instance:
“They won’t be well raised if you’re not committed to their mother.”
smh
‘the vast, vast majority will not, .”
but unlike women their balls won’t dry up by 35 and they won’t grow into bitter spinsters. You are in the wrong lane, brother. You need to tell the feminists that they should shut up over a 55 year old man marrying a nubile chick and stop caring why it doesn’t happen the other way round.
“and among those who do, marital status will make no difference”
Kinda hard to believe that, what with Darwin making notes on its pros and cons in an age when he wouldn’t have been expected to change nappies and partake in other domestic activities.
You left off Schopenhauer and H.P. Lovecraft from the list.
I would also add that marriage makes a man less charitable and inclined to address wider social ills because of the pressure by the wife to provide primarily for her and her materialistic wants.
Posted on the OneStdv blog:
Ferdinand Bardamu only argues by unhinged anger and profanity and making up characterizations of his opponents. That suggests his arguments aren’t very strong. I have to admire his persistence, though.
There are several main points that he just cannot seem to answer.
(1) In our society high status men and successful men almost always seem to get married. Everywhere you look, from Hollywood to politics to business, the successful men are generally married. Being unmarried is one of the key markers of low social status and low education these days.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/18/marriage-income-gap_n_785246.html
Why would anyone aspire to have low status, unless you are a fool?
Corollary to 1: In putting together a list of famous single men, Ferd has dug deep in one of the funniest exercises in cherry picking I have ever seen. I wonder how many married men he had to bypass to just find those. Maybe he just googled ‘famous single people.’ There would be no point in googling ‘famous married people’ of course because that list would be endless.
(2) Married people have more sex, and it is more readily available. All these anti marriage people are working so hard to get laid. Married people aren’t 1/10 so desperate in the sex department. Doesn’t that say something?
(3) Married people live longer.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1351287/Marriage-key-better-life-Study-finds-tying-knot-means-improved-health-longer-life-expectancy.html
(4) Married people are far happier that unmarried men according to most studies. Ferd blames this on divorced men, but since currently divorced men are such a small share of the population of men (most have already remarried) that cannot be it.
(5) Desirable women usually expect, and get, marriage. Among the unmarried, you are increasingly swimming in a sea of less desireable women, whether they are physically unattractive or feminist or both. Smart men know when a good catch comes by and they marry them. As a married man who knew I had to marry my beautiful and nice wife from the minute I met her I am a contributer to this phenomenon. I suppose that is why unmarried men become increasingly bitter about the ‘quality’ of women.
(6) Unless someone is stuck in permanent adolescence or is missing a few screws, you start to think about your legacy, i.e. kids, eventually. And in terms of outcomes, the success of kids is somehow strongly related to the parents being married.
(7) Calling someone a social conservative is not an argument. Frankly, you don’t know how someone came to hold their positions. I for one was a libertine and a nihilist but also a student of success. And as I got to know and learn about successful men in hopes of becoming one, I saw that getting married was a common thread.
(8) Ferdinand Bardamu calls people cowards for posting as ‘anonymous’. Really? This from someone who hides behind a fake name? I therefore call on the brave Ferdinand Bardamu to stop hiding behind a fake name and tell us who he really is.
Dan H:
If you want to read about why so many of those pro-Marriage studies are unreliable shams with bad methodology, I suggest you read the writings of Bella DePaulo. For starters:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/200902/no-getting-married-does-not-make-you-live-longer
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bella-depaulo/single-early-death_b_930999.html
This makes the assumption that men are built to want lots of sex with one woman who doesn’t get uglier with age. In reality, mostly only beta males lack the desire for variety and only beta males are unaware that women can age fast.
An alpha married male would be working just as hard to get laid with different women as a single male would…unless his being married made the single women more attracted to him, in which case getting married would help a man get laid with a variety of women not otherwise available.
I’d buy that argument and sign up for marriage in a heartbeat if I were living in such a cynical culture. In fact, the best wife swap clubs actually do only accept couples. But you don’t have to be actually married to be such a couple so why bother? Just find someone who is willing to go with you to the wife swap clubs.
My experience is that the best single women would be turned off to learn that a man is married. I saw a 10 reject a married man once when her best friend screamed through the window at the last second “I just learned that guy you’re with is married”.
Remember, a woman who is a 10 today, may be a 5 a few years from now.
Yes and No. The alphas get them for free in their late teens and, as they start to fade, betas pick up the tab by marrying them before they really start going downhill physically. There is no guarantee that they will remain desirable women (physically) for the next five years and definitely not the next fifty years.
It may be true that a man should marry a 10 that looks like she’ll stay a 10 for twenty years and won’t stay with him if he doesn’t marry her.
But most women will not successfully bluff an alpha into marrying her or else she will date another man.
Even if one makes the beta assumption that he will attract and interact only with women his own age in perpetuity, you’d have to still admit that he’d be swimming in a sea of decreasingly desirable women no matter what.
The only way to avoid swimming in that sea is to get game and constantly date women who are younger compared to you than the women you dated last year.
Marriage will lock you in to an aging woman. That might be OK if you love her, but, cmon.
Bottom line: if a woman is such a great catch that she’ll only be with a man who will marry her, he can act like he will eventually marry her for five or more years and, if she’s still such a great catch and doesn’t look any older, actually go through with it. If he’s alpha, she’ll wait.
But, if she’s remained as attractive as her much younger self and still wants you, this means that other women as young as she once was will also want you.
So you won’t have to get married to lock in anything along the logic that you’re supposedly getting less attractive. She’d be getting less attractive too.
What marriage generally does is help the woman lock in a man who probably won’t age as quickly as she does.
Marriage is, therefore, almost always a better deal for the woman, even if she is a 10 at the moment.
Let’s compare to buying real estate.
As an investment, you don’t buy real estate when it’s at its highest value, knowing it will decrease in value. But some might say they are doing it for a place to live. Fair enough. But here’s that analogy:
Say you get to live at a seaside mansion for several years, with the owner assuming you are going to buy. But you never promised and, because of your personality, you know you can go on living there many more years without buying. You’re not going to get kicked out, especially as more and more time goes by.
The coastline is eroding and, over the years, you see the cliff receding toward the house. You know a related house 20 miles up the coast has already fallen in on itself as a result of this same erosion process. You see that place on holiday weekends.
Are you ready to buy now? Most sane men wouldn’t under these conditions.
Now let’s say that you look down the coast in the other direction and you see newer, better places being built in a virgin forest area where there’s no erosion and won’t be for another few years yet. You have the option of staying at some of these places for free as well. Some as long as you like, others might charge rent of various kinds. But the living is large in that fresh, erosion free zone whether you pay rent or not.
Still ready to buy the place you’ve been at when you can stay for free until the cliff takes the house down?
Now supposed you meet some guy online who bought a place up the coast that has eroded badly. You do not envy his position. But he has the nerve to pretend that the place is so great that he’s still getting orgasms every night from being there (you know he’s not getting any anymore) and he wistfully tells you that there was a time when the owners of the seaside estates forced everyone to buy the entire property before being allowed to stay even one night. You look at him in disbelief as he says he wishes those days were back.
But why would a buyer in a buyer’s market wish for a seller’s market to return? And is it true that it always used to be a seller’s market?
You start to wonder if the buyer isn’t really a seller, astro-turfing online to support the idea of buying eroded properties.
Or you believe that this guy just wants every other guy to be miserable and buy themselves an eroding property so he won’t feel so bad about his decision, which he’s clearly doubting or else he wouldn’t be online condemning the way things are for other would-be buyers who aren’t buying because they don’t have to.
The last thing you’re going to believe is that this guy is seriously saying he made the right decision to buy a property where the cliff eroded into the house and it caved in.
You’re looking for his real, snake-oil salesman, angle.
Most of these guys I see here have the mentality of a 16 year old. I don’t know about you people but I am getting older every day and legacy matters a lot.
When I see my wife invest in our children and slavishly dote over my little man who looks so much like me, I wouldn’t trade that for the world. My children are awesome and if my wife and I split up, they might be scarred and turn into cynical and twisted misanthropes like Ferdinand Bardamu. So I am committed and its cool.
Does that make me Beta? I would say that real men seed clans and in our age of birth control, these so-called alpha gamers are just dumping their splooge into sterile vessels. They talk as though they are spreading their seed, but they aren’t spreading anything except maybe a genital wart here or an outbreak of herpes there.
So here’s my question for you games and wannabe gamers out there. What sorts of chemicals do you use to disinfect your diseased manhood? Does it burn? If you can’t answer this, you are a mere poser and not a consummate practitioner of game.
So Dan’s real fear is that the most attractive young women have STDs and he feels the only thing you can do with women is exchange bodily fluids, as opposed to dry humping and massages, so why take the risk. Marriage is good, therefore, for neurotics. ;)
So how about this Dan: stay married until the boy is 18 and, meanwhile, get some massages from amateurs after you make them use alcohol swabs to wash their hands. It’s not as if the kid is going to find out about the extra-curricular activities, unless Dan lives in the kind of feminist society where wives feel no shame in loudly announcing to everyone and going to the newspapers when they’ve been betrayed.
Fear of STDs is healthy. In fact, the second major reason why so many men are only capable of wanting sexual action with the most nubile young women, is because they project health and are less likely to have a disease. Evo Psych 101.
If Dan can’t game the healthiest upper middle class young women in his environment, the ones he can be sure don’t have something incurable, and handjobs from the hairdresser or nurse class aren’t of any interest to him, he has a very good reason for just staying married.
Game is supposed to be able to help Dan meet the ones without diseases.
and about the idea that men who want sex have 16 year old mentalities…that seems to be a percentage of adult men who apparently do lose general interest in sex. Then they project their own feelings onto the population of other adult men and assume that the majority of us are somehow the minority and that we are mentally disturbed by wanting sex like we were only supposed to want at 16.
So it’s now a given that men who marry are those more inclined to think that 16 year old boys should want sex more than adult men.
@Dan and @Anonymous
What about starting your own cult? Being the cult leader of a polygamous cult, more alpha you can’t be.
Gents,
“1) Having a woman (and kids) around saps a man’s energy.”
Of course it does. My ex quit work soon after our second child was born. I was the sole income earner for a family of 6 in Sydney. That meant 12-14 hour days for about 6 years. One time in 2007 I worked 47 days straight, yes that means weekends, and some of those days were 36 hours and then a 10 hour break with another 36 hour day following it.
As far as “married men live longer”. This is the stupidity of FALSE causal association. Just because two things are true does not mean one is at CAUSE of the other.
It is also true to say that men who are in poverty, ill health, poor mental health, poor diet, excessive alcohol, smoking, drug taking live SHORTER lives than men who are well off, well fed, with a good job and a pension.
The fact that women DO NOT MARRY men in the first category does not CAUSE men to live longer when married. What causes men to live longer is better health provided for by a decent income. And we all know women marry money not the man. So all those men who like to keep saying “married men live longer” might like to admit their stupidity and stop saying so.
“and about the idea that men who want sex have 16 year old mentalities…that seems to be a percentage of adult men who apparently do lose general interest in sex. Then they project their own feelings onto the population of other adult men and assume that the majority of us are somehow the minority and that we are mentally disturbed by wanting sex like we were only supposed to want at 16.”
No, that was not my point at all. Sex still matter to me, but I also do not have have a one-track mind. I would say that if you do not think about your legacy or the future then you probably have the mind of a 16 year old.
And when it comes to kids, a married environment seems to produce the best outcomes, by a fairly large margin.
Furthermore, as I said, in our society of birth control, outside of marriage you are either hitting a sterile wall or else you are with a low-class woman. And if a woman has blocked herself off to you reproductively, she is not really yours and she’s not really opening her insides to you, just her herpified outer parts.
Interesting, and I didn’t see this touched on. But I’ve been curiously looking at it. Many of the wealthiest empire builders where in fact married men, but when you examine their marriages, what you end up with is men who more or less married women from a particular family for social reasons and for the sole purpose of making babies. The Rockfellars did this, as many other great men from the early 20th century.
This makes me wonder, if we go back far enough we find more men taking premant mates or wives sometimes more than one. This wasn’t so much out of love, a relationship and connection will develop if you hang out with anyone long enough. But these woman where often simply integrated into the household of the man.
That being said, genetics and science that has looked at men who are polygamist have found it’s better for your seed to produce multiple children with one women than one child with 10 women. Greater preservation of the genome expression.
I wanted to throw in there at the end of my statement about integration, that these woman where around primary for taking care of the household and the children. Primarily the children.
If you chose to be a life long bachelor, I’d advise against having children personally. I don’t want another Alpha or anyone else giving input and direction into how my offspring will be raised outside of my own. Thus the need to facilitate and keep a woman near during the entire portion of my life I plain to be procreating.
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