Not all of them. But enough that it’s impossible not to notice.
One MRA I knew, back when I cared about it and supported the movement, used to ride around on a recumbent bicycle. I guess his prostate had become so stretched from all that government ass-fucking that he couldn’t comfortably sit upright anymore.
I’m well aware that the fastest way to create an angry gang of helpless wimps is to call MRA’s unmanly. That’s because the accusation’s truth sticks deep in their hindbrain. “We’re still men,” sobbed bitch-tits Bob. (Not in one essential respect…)
Anyway, I eagerly anticipate your cogent and levelheaded rebuttals. In the mean time, here is my affirmative case.
What are the culturally universal traits definining manhood? Mark from Post: Masculine lists two:
- Emotional dissociation.
- Initiation.
Now, what is the typical MRA like?
An older schlub, he passively allowed his wife to steamroll him into lifelong slavery. She used access to the kids as leverage while draining him financially through the courts. She probably also successfully used lies and manipulation to tilt the system even more heavily against him.
What did he do about this? Nothing. Rather than leave the country, he joined a cause dedicated to bitching, and to this day he continues to obligingly bend over the barrel while feminism rapes him with a huge spiked clit.
So, let’s see how he scores on the two universal metrics of manhood:
- Emotional dissociation – None. Parental oxytocin has overridden his mental functions, and all he does is cry over his victimization. He may be shellshocked, but that doesn’t count. Numbed female rape victims aren’t masculine – trauma requires initial vulnerability.
- Initiation – He passively allowed himself to be enslaved. He was the manipulated object of a slow-moving and soul-destroying process. He is that which is acted upon.
Conclusion: The MRA is not a real man.
I am not one to heap gratuitous opprobrium upon a class so pathetic and inoffensive as the victims of the divorce-industrial complex. The real villains in this drama deserve the most ingenuously low-budget tortures North Korea can devise.
Insult a woman, and she will go through a complex but boring series of emotional reactions. Insult a man, and you will galvanize him to 1) prove you wrong, and 2) kill you. (Not necessarily in that order.)
So I am slapping MRAs in the face and inviting them to prove me wrong.
Or, I suppose, they could try to kill me. But they’d have to fly halfway around the world to do it. Either way, they’d have to leave the country, which is what I want them to do.
Why? Because the divorce-industrial complex cannot exist if men stop paying. Its raison d’être is money. Likewise, marriage cannot exist if men protest current laws by refusing to marry.
The typical MRA is contemptible. Not only is he a slave, he works diligently to build his own torture chamber – which will house not only him, but also his fellow slaves and their slave children.
That’s right. In the name of parental love, you MRA’s perpetuate a system that grinds up America’s youth. Your sons become bastards and your daughters take to the pole.
I propose a new loyalty requirement: the true MRA must pay nothing – not one cent – of unmerited and extortionate alimony and child support. If he does, he is a traitor to men’s rights. He is no better than the Jews who helped Nazis kill Jews.
Some of the hardest cases have had their passports revoked. You are the true slaves. Going to prison is not an appealing option. Is payment the only alternative?
No. You can always, always leave. The US government is no more competent at keeping people inside its borders than it is at keeping people out of them. Build up cash off the grid, lower your profile, then disappear completely. Become a criminal, an upstanding member of the underground economy. It’s a flourishing ecosystem, I assure you. And you already are one, anyway.
Read J J Luna’s book How To Be Invisible if you’ve no idea where to start.
Stop fighting legal battles you can’t afford. Stop trying to fix a system that’s a locomotive charging off a cliff.
L.E.A.V.E.
“But,” you ask, “What about my kids?”
The correct answer is, “Kids? I don’t have any kids.”
As a man, your heart should contain a void. That void is your own mortality – the knowledge that one day you will die. And so will everyone else.
Normally, you keep the void locked away. You play the role of a loving, emotionally normal human being. But when a matter of honor arises, and a difficult choice must be made, then it’s time to unlock the void. Gaze deeply into it. Keep looking until nothing stares from your eyes but bottomless abyss.
Children are replaceable. Women are interchangeable. Honor is neither.
All flesh is dust, and to dust all flesh returns. Let the dead bury their own dead.
Koanic writes an incredibly abstruse and offensive blog called Koanic Soul. Nobody should visit it, ever. He is a holy roller/fake Christian. Any girl who sleeps with him is a slut, especially if she’s a virgin.
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And if you do end up in prison, use the three square meals a day, roof over your head, exercise facilities, library, internet, college courses, and anything else they give you on the taxpayer dime to improve and prepare yourself for for such a time as when you are released, knowing that by removing your production and replacing it with additional burden on the system, you are hastening the system’s demise.
In other words, be exactly like Peter Nolan.
Except that he spends most of his time moaning, whining, and bitching on MRA sites, too.
Ok, we get it. MRAs think PUAs are weak flabby men with the backbone of jellyfish who cave in to women and give them whatever they want in order to gratefully receive at the hands of the superior and haughty female sex that priceless treasure for which the PUA sacrifices dignity and autonomy- sex.
PUAs think MRAs are pathetic losers for refusing to cave in to female demands and sacrifice autonomy and dignity for sex and refusing to realize that sex is more important than male autonomy, or any vague, vaporous, intangible bullshit like *self-respect*
The dividing chasm is vast and unbridgable. What we need is a divorce.
Each just has a completely different value system, and we all know that there is no point fighting over VALUES – thats the most fruitless kind of argument and convinces no one.
PUAs have 3 ways they define their value, with each individual PUA adopting one of the levels
Level 1) A PUA takes pride in being able to change his personality in order to be liked by women. His self-value is defined by how women perceive him. He is actually proud of his ability to win approval from women.
Level 2) A PUA does not take actual pride in winning approval from women, but does not think that changing his personality in order to curry favor with women is a loss of dignity.
Level 3) A PUA DOES admit it involves a loss of dignity, but thinks he has *no choice* because women (women, not sex, because he refuses to use prostitutes) are more important than anything else, and certainly more important than dignity (whats dignity anyways? Sounds like intangible bullshit to the PUA.).
Now this is a VALUE system, not an argument over facts. To someone who embraces any of the 3 levels described above as a value system, what is there to argue about? Either you desire self-respect, or it is not important to you. Voila.
MRAs simply embrace a DIFFERENT VALUE system. To the MRA, male autonomy, being governed by oneself rather than allowing women to create rules for you which you have to learn and then follow, having dignity, and having self-respect, is a value system they embrace.
What is at stake is not a question of fact. It is a question of values. And it is a truism that such discussions are pointless.
So why dont we just go our separate ways and leave each other in peace? We are just different sorts of people with different values in life, like Republicans and Democrats.
Fighting with each other is f-ing retarded. Direct your fighting towards everyone’s real enemy and start punishing them.
A poor characterization of actual MRAs.
I think you’ll find the response lacking, as this article is quite juvenile. Most MRAs reading this will find it laughable. Like a 10 year old bully trying to intimidate a high schooler, all you’ll receive is a smirk.
Probably the biggest hurdle of Men’s rights is getting people to actually care about men, particularly other men.
I don’t care what you or anyone else think of my masculinity. You can have your chest puffing circle jerks and pissing contests trying to prove who’s the biggest man. It doesn’t impress me, but you might get some pussy. Unfortunately, you are a part of the problem rather than the solution to men’s liberation.
The locomotive has already charged off the cliff and there are many men who need to be made aware of the risk they face so they can make smart choices. Leaving their children and their homes is not a reasonable solution for most. I think fighting the system is more honourable than running from it (there’s a word for that)
I really wish Paul hadn’t written that article about PUAs. And I wish people hadn’t taken it so personally.
Titan, here is why anyone familiar with PUA thinks that the MRA idiots (not all MRAs are idiots, but clearly some are) who disparage them are pussies.
Replace “changing his personality” with an actual game principle. Lets go with PUA 101, don’t buy women drinks. When a woman asks you to buy a drink she is seeing if she can control and manipulate you. A PUA is not controlled and manipulated, and if he’s good he may get her to buy him a drink instead. So 101 is not being controlled and manipulated by women. And after some cut and pasting we have
——————————————————————————————————
Level 1) A PUA takes pride *in not being controlled and manipulated* in order to be liked by women. His self-value is defined by how women perceive him [as a man who cannot be tamed]. He is actually proud of his ability to win approval from women.
Level 2) A PUA does not take actual pride in winning approval from women, but does not think that *not being controlled and manipulated* in order to curry favor with women is a loss of dignity [as opposed to following them around like a love sick puppy as most men naturally do, how dignified].
Level 3) A PUA DOES admit that *not being controlled and manipulated* involves a loss of dignity [a dignified man thanks a woman for the chance to buy her a drink], but thinks he has *no choice* because women (women, not sex, because he refuses to use prostitutes) are more important than anything else, and certainly more important than dignity (whats dignity anyways? Sounds like intangible bullshit to the PUA.).
——————————————————————————————————
To you it seems that the only options are to buy the woman a drink, or not go to the bar at all. The idea of taking control of the situation does not register. And that’s why you get called a pussy.
The truth is that omegas seem to hate game because of how the system classifies them. Omegas also hate women and are naturally drawn to MRA. I don’t think that there is any actual logical or philosophical divide between the two, in fact they fit together quite nicely.
The idea that PUA is somehow hurting the MRA movement is pretty silly to. If it was hurting it, why do feminists hate it so much? Are you really trying to say that writers like Roosh, Roissy, Vox Day, are somehow not of the position that family court law is evil and in need of radical reform? Have any of you anti-PUA MRAers actually read any game theory, at all? If I call you idiots its because you seem to be trying to make an enemy out of a natural ally. No one is saying that you have to join the PUA community to be in the MRA community. If you don’t like them for whatever stupid reason, just ignore them, but stop attacking these people who in any matter that you actually care about have you backs.
Weaklings start movements emphasizing their plight.
Blacks, women, homosexuals, and now white, middle-aged castrati.
Rights are asserted, not demanded.
And bear in mind that this divide between so-called MRAs and PUAs is actually a schism based on age.
MRAs are mostly middle-aged, embittered, spineless and craven men whose movement is revanchist and retreatist-conservative.
They effectively colluded for many years in making the world a worse place for the rest of us and now the system which they once supported, having used and abused them as social cannon-fodder has thrust them into the cold.
The PUA lifestyle largely appeals to the young man of enterprise,
As I pointed out in an article months ago, National Cuckoldry, the central unconscious idealogy of aspiring PUA spurs young men to action.
If the PUA lifestyle is somewhat nihilistic this is because they recognize that destruction is necessary to creation, and the entire system must fall.
A PUA refuses to allow the parasites to feed off him, any longer, while the MRA simply demands that they suck less blood from his system.
In order to destroy the parasites, we must therefore destroy their prey, in order to starve them.
Thus, MRAs are a clear and present danger, to the future of young men and must be eliminated, en mass.
Also the goals of MRA’s are laughable.
Who needs rights? Just return women to their natural legal status, as objects.
Yawn. Well, since stalinists and trotskyists hated each other more than either hated capitalists, sunnis and shias in the early days of Islam hated each other more than either hated non-Muslims etc, so the various alphabet soup groups involved with improving the status of men in society seem to spend more effort defaming one another than actually opposing misandry.
Just knock it off, this mutual whinefest is unmanly.
your comparison is as ridiculous as your username.
Non-MRAs have no interest in opposing misandry, or improving anyone’s status but their own.
The MRA parade needs to be kicked off the highway to the future and into the nearest ditch.
Zeta male=someone who got punked by women all their life. Unable to impress or intimidate.
What is gender after all, but a biomechanical construct? A tremendous and interest situation, is it not?
“Emotional dissociation – None. Parental oxytocin has overridden his mental functions, and all he does is cry over his victimization. He may be shellshocked, but that doesn’t count. Numbed female rape victims aren’t masculine – trauma requires initial vulnerability.”
I don’t agree that emotional dissociation is a masculine trait nor do I agree that it is healthy. Of course as adults we need to carve our own way in the world but what makes a boy a man is the ability to take responsibility. We take responsibility for those we are emotionally connected with, not strangers. Without a sense of duty and responsibility towards one’s family, and especially one’s children, a man is like an orientationless leaf in the wind. If you don’t want to take responsibility then never have kids, its that simple. The world is your oyster when you’re single and childless, go out and explore. But once you got kids, you’ve got to be there for them.
There is risk in meeting women, falling in love, getting married and getting someone knocked up. If you are not up to the task, medical technology can help with that. Or simply just avoid them altogether. Don’t have kids and then take it out on them.
Booch, for every one non-pussy begging device, PUA has like 10 pussy begging devices. Thats the whole point of putting in the 1 non-pussy begging device, so it makes you feel OK about doing all the pussy begging stuff.
OK, so you dont buy women drinks, right? Clearly, you are your own man, right? Except, that you try to overcome bitch shields, you neg, you demonstrate higher value, you are aloof when feeling social, social when feeling aloof….you are ANYTHING, so long as the woman likes it. You play by HER rules.
Even when you dont buy drinks, do you not buy drinks because YOU dont feel like it, or because you think SHE will like it?
Let me clue you in on a little secret here – you should not be buying women drinks as a way to beg them to spend time with you, NOT because SHE does not like it, but because it shows you dont value YOURSELF.
Even the handful of non-inherently pussy-begging devices of game game converts into essentially pussy begging devices.
Its a subtle point, but becoming your own so that SHE WILL LIKE YOU is a contradiction. Think about that for a few minutes. Its a subtle point and hard to grasp, but once grasped, it frees you from game forever (assuming, of course, you are innately capable of holding self-respect as a value. Not all men are.)
It is a FUNDAMENTAL perspective difference we have – you define your self-respect in how others see you, I define my self-respect in being an autonomous male who lays down my own rules (without *checking* to see if women will like me more for laying down my own rules or not!).
Like I said, its about values.
You do things because SHE WILL LIKE IT. You *become your own man* because you think SHE WILL LIKE IT.
I lay down my own laws for myself and strive to become an autonomous and self-directing male.
Its just a fundamental value difference, and no one is going to convince the other of what is *better*.
Ha. How quickly the gamer cult drops into shaming language like weak little bitched whenever someone criticizes their favorite aspie obsession. Game is creepy, any man who has studied it long enough will realize strict method and canned responses makes you a beep boop aspergers creepy rapist.
This ignores the whole fact that game doesn’t even exist, and can hinder you from developing actual social skills. No wonder so many men with computer science degrees love it, its an absurd formulaic reduction that will make you free of actual social skills.
Want to learn how to build rapport and attraction? Read Carnegie not the confused rantings of a twenty year old autistic.
It appears the pre-emptive mockery has had some effect. I am encouraged.
Titian :
“Ok, we get it. MRAs think PUAs are weak flabby men with the backbone of jellyfish who cave in to women and give them whatever they want in order to gratefully receive at the hands of the superior and haughty female sex that priceless treasure for which the PUA sacrifices dignity and autonomy- sex.”
Silly argument. Can be true, definitely. But female validation, like male validation, is often a more reliable indicator of genuine personal growth than one’s self-perceptions.
“PUAs think MRAs are pathetic losers for refusing to cave in to female demands and sacrifice autonomy and dignity for sex and refusing to realize that sex is more important than male autonomy, or any vague, vaporous, intangible bullshit like *self-respect*”
Oh, very fair statement of the argument.
“The dividing chasm is vast and unbridgable. What we need is a divorce.”
Will never happen. Most PUAs are also MRAs, at least in the broad sense.
“PUAs have 3 ways they define their value, with each individual PUA adopting one of the levels
Level 1) A PUA takes pride in being able to change his personality in order to be liked by women. His self-value is defined by how women perceive him. He is actually proud of his ability to win approval from women.
Level 2) A PUA does not take actual pride in winning approval from women, but does not think that changing his personality in order to curry favor with women is a loss of dignity.
Level 3) A PUA DOES admit it involves a loss of dignity, but thinks he has *no choice* because women (women, not sex, because he refuses to use prostitutes) are more important than anything else, and certainly more important than dignity (whats dignity anyways? Sounds like intangible bullshit to the PUA.).”
Just wrong. Some PUAs are validation junkies, although this is an improvement over one-itis. The smart ones understand that it’s about self development, and female success is just one feedback mechanism.
Those who think PUAs lack dignity are really only criticizing the dancing monkey variant. A competent PUA has learned to bear himself with far more dignity than the average MRA. Dignity is both a matter of social bearing and lifelong character. Anti-PUA MRAs focus only on the latter.
“MRAs simply embrace a DIFFERENT VALUE system. To the MRA, male autonomy, being governed by oneself rather than allowing women to create rules for you”
The PUA is autonomously pursuing his desires according to an accurate map of the world. The accurate map is PUA knowledge of female nature.
“What is at stake is not a question of fact. It is a question of values. And it is a truism that such discussions are pointless.”
That anti-PUA MRA’s are generally not real men is fact, not value. I even made it culturally universal. QED.
“So why dont we just go our separate ways and leave each other in peace? We are just different sorts of people with different values in life, like Republicans and Democrats.”
Brilliant analogy, since those two are systemically locked in perpetual combat.
Things Are Bad:
It’s hard to silently smirk when your lips are moving.
Denis:
“I don’t care what you or anyone else think of my masculinity.”
Chest puffing.
“You can have your chest puffing”
See above.
“I think fighting the system is more honourable than running from it (there’s a word for that)”
There’s a word for not running, too. It’s called kamikaze. How’d that work out as a military strategy?
dejour
This is not a response to that Paul guy. I never read his article. Just serendipity – or an ongoing war.
Booch
Nicely said. It’s omegaville. Hazing outspoken omegas is a duty of every functional male hierarchy, and there’s nothing feminist about it. Omega MRAs try to hide behind the cause to cry “stop hitting me!” It’s one step removed from hiding behind mommy’s skirt.
Savrola:
“And bear in mind that this divide between so-called MRAs and PUAs is actually a schism based on age. MRAs are mostly middle-aged, embittered, spineless and craven men whose movement is revanchist and retreatist-conservative. They effectively colluded for many years in making the world a worse place for the rest of us and now the system which they once supported, having used and abused them as social cannon-fodder has thrust them into the cold.” – brilliant.
“A PUA refuses to allow the parasites to feed off him, any longer, while the MRA simply demands that they suck less blood from his system.” – hilarious. I would even say that the PUA turns the tables, drinking the blood of the vampires.
“Also the goals of MRA’s are laughable. Who needs rights? Just return women to their natural legal status, as objects.” – Fuck me you’re hilarious.
MikkoAP
” seem to spend more effort defaming one another than actually opposing misandry.”
The article was about how to destroy feminism, moron. Secession is an existential threat. Going omega celibate isn’t. The best revenge is living well.
petesvampat
“I don’t agree that emotional dissociation is a masculine trait nor do I agree that it is healthy.”
First, I’d like to offer my unconditional support and encouragement for you being so BRAVE to stop crying long enough to type that.
Secondly, I meant to write “disassociation”.
Thirdly, there are many obligations of honor that transcend children. You’re just a biological bitch.
@Koanic,
It’s not chest puffing when I’m simply not interested in a competition of who is more masculine. I simply decline the competition because it is stupid and your definitions of masculinity are irrelevant to independent and free men who think for themselves.
I find it strange that there are so many traditionalist attitudes about masculinity here, yet with the complete rejection of manning up and serving women. It seems to me that you men are only liberated from being controlled by women but not from men.
“Who needs rights? Just return women to their natural legal status, as objects.”
Is this a common theme among game/PUA? It seems to be the same reactionary / regressive / nihilism that Frost accused MRAs of? It’s fairly common among older MRM / MGTOW but not among younger men, of which there are many in the MRM.
When you get a false rape accusation or domestic violence charge, you might think differently about men’s rights.
It is in fact possible for men to care about the lives of other men.
But you have to drop this “brotherhood” of humanity deal. White nationalists have brothers all over the world. But that is more than just having a penis; it’s having the right race, the right ideas and the right commitment. The MRM has the unenviable task of uniting Jews and Muslims, Kaffirs and Boers. It will prove quite difficult.
Koani
*…..Just wrong. Some PUAs are validation junkies, although this is an improvement over one-itis. The smart ones understand that it’s about self development, and female success is just one feedback mechanism….*
Wait, so its about self-development, and female success is the feedback mechanism that lets you know you have successfully self-developed yourself? Female reaction is the arbiter of your self-development success?
Ah, but you are not seeking validation through women! Ah-ha, got it…..
Do you think before you type?
As an aside, I clearly stated validation seeking is only ONE type of PUA (clearly your type, lol). Other types are levels 2 and 3 as described above.
*…..Those who think PUAs lack dignity are really only criticizing the dancing monkey variant. A competent PUA has learned to bear himself with far more dignity than the average MRA. Dignity is both a matter of social bearing and lifelong character. Anti-PUA MRAs focus only on the latter…..*
Like I said, its a value difference. I believe that changing your personality in order to be liked by women is a sacrifice of dignity. In my view, ALL personality changes designed for the purpose of being liked by women is Dancing Monkey.
See what I am saying? Difference in value system. You think changing your personality to be liked by women does not involve a loss of dignity in and of itself (level 2 type of PUA). I think it does.
You think dignity is a matter partially of *social bearing*, which I presume from your context you mean *adjusting your behavior to be liked by others*. I think dignity means having the courage to be yourself without giving a shit what others think (with the only caveat, perhaps, of not hurting other for no reason).
*……….“MRAs simply embrace a DIFFERENT VALUE system. To the MRA, male autonomy, being governed by oneself rather than allowing women to create rules for you”
The PUA is autonomously pursuing his desires according to an accurate map of the world. The accurate map is PUA knowledge of female nature………*
The Slave is autonomously pursuing his desire for food by submitting to his masters wishes. After all, he wants food, right? Its either be a slave or starve. So clearly he is being autonomous, right? ANYTHING he does in order to satisfy his desires means he is being autonomous, right? Right? Right?
Argumentum ad hominem. Attack the “typical” MRA and not the ideas that the MRM stands for, nor the advice they could pass on to young men and put an end to the broken institution of marriage.
Red:
let the fight happen man. i mean, have you ever been in a situation where two dudes want to square off and get that energy out of their system and then you have some chick or some do-good kumbayaist yammering on about just talking it out?
so let MRAs and Gamers get at one another. it will be good, and it will probably be fun for the spectators too.
Denis, you’re engaging in chest puffing by constantly lionizing the superiority of your preferred brand of manhood. To spell out the obvious, you idiot.
“yet with the complete rejection of manning up and serving women”
Servitude to the undeserving is unbecoming.
True that Ryu.
You’re a dishonest little bitch, Titian. Female success is one of the metrics. Not the. Stupid and dishonest – you’re done.
Ad hom is a fallacy, Dali, you moron. The argument is not fallacious. And justified personal attacks are not ad hom. There’s no point talking to you either.
Three morons. Why don’t you guys start a movement. Oh, wait…
“When you get a false rape accusation or domestic violence charge, you might think differently about men’s rights.”
Thus cringeth the coward, Denis.
The answer to false rape accusations and domestic violence charges, is not begging the almighty SYSTEM for redress of grievences.
It is the ancient and sacred rite which men have practiced throughout the world’s history to maintain their autonomy. This is known as “honor killing”
“Argumentum ad hominem. Attack the “typical” MRA and not the ideas that the MRM stands for, nor the advice they could pass on to young men and put an end to the broken institution of marriage.”
Nobody is arguing in favor of the institution of marriage, Sperg.
and no one needs advice from losers. We have functioning eyes and brains which enable us to profit from your experience without having to listen to you bitch about it.
Oh, so female reaction to you is *one* of the metrics, not *the* metric?
What does this change? One of your sources of validation is still women. Maybe it is not the only source of your validation, but it is one of your sources.
That you allow yourself to be validated by women AT ALL, even as only one source amongst several, means you seek validation from women – which is all that I said.
But I do appreciate that you admit that you do seek validation from women, as at least one of your multiple sources of validation.
Many gamers flail about desperately in an effort to deny this and twist words in the most incredible ways.
I have always said that if games just were honest about the pussy begging nature of their enterprise and dispensed with all the pretense of being confident, people would have much less of a problem with game.
Its the contradictory messages and denials which rub people the wrong way. There is nothing I cant stand more than a person doing something pathetic who denies that he is doing it. A pathetic person is a pathetic person, but one who at least admit it deserves more respect than the one who is in denial. At least he has the courage of honesty.
This is starting to get really silly…
Tomorrow: “Gamers Are Aspie Creeps With No Penises”
Sunday: “MRAs are Crybabies Who Haven’t Gotten Laid Since God Was a Boy”
Monday: “Hey, At Least We Used to Get Laid, Unlike You PUA Virgin Losers”
….
Ah, fuck this shit.
Now Titian, you dishonest bitch, if you can just successfully replace “feedback mechanism” with “validation”, and include “men” in with “women”, you’ll have an honest characterization. Unfortunately it will no longer help your case.
You’re basically arguing that anyone practicing self-improvement who credits feedback from life experience involving other people is not a real man. Good luck with that.
I don’t see why one can’t be both. I read both PUA and MRA websites, both provide useful information. Both provide different skillsets that one may cherry-pick for different situations.
And, both groups have grown from a response to feminism and its effect on society as a whole. PUAs use what feminism has (d)evolved women into in order to access the almighty vagina. MRAs likely grew up supporting feminism or at least the belief that women = men without dicks which is what they preach in school these days; and after attempting to follow the rules have sour grapes, because none of it is real. Cant one follow PUA principles when on the hunt for women and an MRA in other situations?
I’m sure a Bachelor Tax would bridge that chasm between the two very quick.
“Denis, you’re engaging in chest puffing by constantly lionizing the superiority of your preferred brand of manhood.”
I have no preferred brand and I’m not interested in imposing any brand on any man. However, I do have a problem when other men (like yourself) try to define manhood for others and try to impose it on them using such shaming tactics.
I haven’t seen such widespread use of childish insults since primary school. What do you get out of insulting men that you don’t agree with and don’t fit your mold? BTW, It’s a rhetorical question, with an obvious answer.
And so we get to the heart of Omega: “I think dignity means having the courage to be yourself without giving a shit what others think”. Titian has now shown us that any action taken for any reason other than some mysterious source found in each of us is a dancing monkey with no dignity. Defy all authority! Abhor all instruction! Its not that my social IQ is so low that I just plain don’t get along with anyone, its that I have dignity! And even if it was my social IQ there is certainly nothing anyone can do to raise it otherwise it would be my fault!
All actions are taken for the reason of reaching a goal. And for that reason all actions can be measured as either effective or ineffective. Clearly Titian has his reasons for wanting to remain ineffective, but the public school “You’re all wonderful just the way you are” bullshit mask is just getting annoying.
Ah, fuck this shit.
It’s hilarious, though, you have to admit. Entertaining theater, when morons make fools of themselves in public, really.
OK, so you use the reactions of women and men as a feedback mechanism to see if you have successfully self-developed. According to you this is a perfectly accurate description of your position.
You use the positive reactions of women and men to see if this is a change you wish to make. If the change you made elicits negative reactions from women and men, then you use that feedback to abandon that change.
The criteria is – do other people like me? Do other people respect me? Do other people respond well to me?
In MY view, an autonomous male asks – do I like myself? Do I respect and admire what I have become? NOT, do other people admire me?
*…….You’re basically arguing that anyone practicing self-improvement who credits feedback from life experience involving other people is not a real man. Good luck with that……..*
Yes, that is precisely what I am arguing. Other people are not the judges of whether I have improved or not. I am. A real man does not use the reactions of others to judge if he has improved or not. Radical, no? Takes real back bone, no? Takes real independence and autonomy, no? Thats why its for the few. And thats why people who like game will never agree with my value system. My value system requires back bone. Game does not.
You have finally grasped my point, and thanks for the kind wishes of luck. And I am not trying to argue anyone into anything, I am just interested in laying the issues on the table. I have already said that the differences are one of value.
“so let MRAs and Gamers get at one another. it will be good, and it will probably be fun for the spectators too.”
Agreed. They are not cut from the same cloth. The let the natural division happen. These guys are not on the same team.
Booch, not some mysterious source, our values. I did not realize that honoring your values over that of another is mysterious. Perhaps you find it mysterious because you lack values and depend on women to tell you what to think.
Defy authority? Sure, if they conflict with your values. Happens all the time throughout history. Generally, the people who defy authority when it conflicts with their values are considered heros. The ones who submit are considered spineless.
Abhor all instruction? Yes, if you mean instruction in how to please and ingratiate yourself with other people. People who learned these arts were considered courtiers historically. They were thought of as effeminate and contemptible.
Is my social IQ low or do I just have dignity? It depends. Some people dont get along with others because they pointlessly offend them. Some people are disliked because they have the courage to be yourself. If you avoid causing pointless offense and are still disliked, it is because you have dignity and the courage the be yourself. The solution. Dont bend to others, find your natural social element. If you are a nerd, find the society of other nerds. If you are a jock amongst artistic types, being yourself will mean being disliked. That is the painful price of having a back bone. Not everyone is willing to pay it.
Who said I am ineffective? That is just wishful thinking on your part, because you cannot imagine having back bone and courage is compatible with success.
Is everyone wonderful the way they are? I suppose you mean will everyone be liked by everyone else just the way they are? My whole point is that clearly not. But to me, the goal of being liked by everyone is contemptible.
PUA is useless if you want to achieve mental stability/clarity. You’re continually running around in your head trying to work out the next funny/cool thing to say that’ll make her/him like you/think you’re cool.
Yawn. Who wants to spend the rest of their life living like that?
You already know how to act around women. You’ve known it since you were old enough to understand social interactions. The only person stopping you from acting like a natural is yourself. Ask yourself the question: What’s making me hold myself back?
If Jack Donovan is on your team then I agree that we are at serious odds.
Male disposability and hierarchy that Jack champions is very much an MRA concern. This isn’t a male renaissance but rather a very traditional aspect of masculinity.
Titian: “But to me, the goal of being liked by everyone is contemptible.”
Again, have you read any PUA blogs? At all? Who is trying to please everybody?
Titian: “OK, so you use the reactions of women and men as a feedback mechanism to see if you have successfully self-developed. According to you this is a perfectly accurate description of your position.”
We interact with other people (if we are not hermit Omegas) and when we do we have a goal in mind. If the goal is to make a sale, an interaction that results in a sale is successful. That is how it is measured. If the goal is to have sex with a woman, an interaction that results in building attraction is successful. That is how it is measured. If the goal is to become better at social interactions, changes that result in a higher number of successful interactions are successful. That is how it is measured. Denying the relationship between action and result, or saying that improvement in social interactions always results in loss of dignity is Omega. That is how it is measured.
“OK, so you use the reactions of women and men as a feedback mechanism to see if you have successfully self-developed. According to you this is a perfectly accurate description of your position.”
Nope, bitch, it’s incomplete. Your new dishonest assumption is that external feedback is the sole criterion. It’s not.
“You’re continually running around in your head trying to work out the next funny/cool thing to say that’ll make her/him like you/think you’re cool.”
Only if you’re a fail PUA.
“Only if you’re a fail PUA.”
I don’t understand.
I think another sore spot for MRAs is that is that Game delivers results faster than the MRAs activism. Just because many MRAs view PUAs as men who debase themselves solely to get pussy, PUAs neither see it that way, or feel that way because they are getting what they want.
In the article “Chateau Bullshit” you see a very good example of male solipsism when he states all a man has to do to seduce a women is to smell clean, get close to woman and then ignore her. Elam thinks this will work because he sees that it works for women. This example he gives inadvertently belied his lack of knowledge towards what women actually find attractive since it says nothing about taking initiative, being social, and dominant.
MRAs are also under the impression that learning Game only is good for seducing women. They fail to realize that the same characteristics that make you attractive to women can also make you successful in other areas of life.
All I’ve got to add is that you blokes have the right answers to the wrong questions.
Simon, the point is that once you are an expert at something you don’t think about it that in depth. It just becomes natural. So if you don’t fail at PUA, you will get to the point where your not constantly running around in your head. This is true of basically any skill. When you type your not constantly running around in your head thinking about which key to hit next, you just do it. Same with PUA, same with any skill.
Question: lets say you learn game, ride the cunt carousel, reach your 40s and manage to backpack through Asia while banging chinks half your age and eventually find one worth shacking up with and you decide its time for you to experience fatherhood before you it 50 so you guys have a kid but you were at least smart enough not to marry.
What do you do when sheleaves and takes the kid and the government comes after you for child support money which it will because most countries do?
How is PUA going to save you from that?
Booch Paradise,
Yeah, I get where you’re coming from mate.
To me though, game is about making people think you’re cool, which comes with associated mental processes. That’s not really how I want to live so I had to find something else to utilise. I don’t mind if other men find benefit out of living like that. We’re just looking for something different.
Pete, your scenario would be satisfying to some but not all men. There are options available for whatever your sexual goals may be.
International mobility solves the child support issue.
Pass the popcorn, Simon. This will be fun to watch.
“International mobility solves the child support issue.”
Think again.
The flood is coming, and the ants are scurrying in an attempt to stay above the water. Gamers are the ants. The Mens Rights Movement is the flood. Be informed, stay alert. Keep moving forward.
“I think another sore spot for MRAs is that is that Game delivers results faster than the MRAs activism”
Game delivers different results than MRA activism but I agree that it is useful. There are many proponents of game in the MRM but there are some concerns. Another problem in the MRM is with typical alpha pissing matches rather than cooperation. Everyone wants to drive their own boat! I have some hope for game but my concern is with the people involved crapping on omegas.
Game/PUA is more a branch of MGTOW and they are also very often stubborn nihilists.
Men’s Rights Movement, LOL! Why don’t you faggots just cut your dicks off now, because you’re clearly not men. What man would beg and plead for his “rights”?
Bunch of fucking faggots.
Ah, fuck this shit.
This. Promoting sociopathy as a virtue? Denouncing fatherhood?
Epic fail.
“Game/PUA is more a branch of MGTOW and they are also very often stubborn nihilists.”
Wrong. MGTOW is a branch of MRA. PUAs are not going their own way. They are going where the women are. Feminism and the sexual revolution serves the purposes of game, not MRA.
So basically you guys read the headline and skipped straight to the bottom for the obligatory circle jerk.
This should have been a prerequisite from the beginning, but for the record:
I am no gamer. I’ve never picked a woman up in a bar or any other location.
Never had much use for PUAs, other than Roissy.
However, the efficacy of “game” or the practice of cultured masculinity cannot be disputed.
Game is simply a social art, that has been practiced since the beginning of time. Like martial arts, social arts improve their practicioners in a variety of ways.
Women are all legal wards of the state with special status.
Those who understand this, use game to take advantage of them. Like robbing banks. The government insures them, no one loses anything, except their virginity. butthexing one o one.
MRAs, on the other hand, demand equality or a similar protected status under the law, from the state.
Its very simple-not even an alpha/beta/omega/ect category, just a simple distinction that seperates the males from the eunuchs.
Koan, you only addressed the 2nd part of the equation below, not the “leaves and takes the kid away from his/her father” part.
“What do you do when she leaves and takes the kid and the government comes after you for child support money which it will because most countries do?
How is PUA going to save you from that?”
MGTOW is not just celibate ghosts, they just refuse to get married and participate in the system, like you guys, except you concentrate on women.
If you’re not the marrying type then you are MGTOW.
MGTOW has nothing to do with activism, just like PUA/game.
Simon, I appreciate the honesty, but saying that game is just for making people think that you are cool is like saying that economics is just for investing in the stock market. The application goes far beyond just picking up girls, or being cool.
“Women are all legal wards of the state with special status.
Those who understand this, use game to take advantage of them. Like robbing banks. The government insures them, no one loses anything, except their virginity. butthexing one o one.
MRAs, on the other hand, demand equality or a similar protected status under the law, from the state.”
I’d like to hear your advice on protecting men from false rape and domestic violence allegations? Or is it okay if some men lose, as long as it’s not you…yet.
“Koan, you only addressed the 2nd part of the equation below, not the “leaves and takes the kid away from his/her father” part.”
Yes, and you said international mobility wouldn’t solve child support. Care to back that assertion. I can cite the recent example of the dude who moved to Indonesia to avoid alimony payments, and wasn’t caught until years later when he returned for a wedding.
To answer your question – and the fact that you ask this means you know almost nothing about Game – Game solves your wife leaving you by making you better at LTRs, so it never happens unless you let it.
Booch,
I’m interested in what other applications you think game has.
Denis, the answer is simple and should be self-evident to you.
That it is not, is indicative of your category.
Violence and bloodshed are the answer to miscarriages of justice, as I had already state previously.
Booch, I have as my goal avoiding a beating from a bully. To achieve that goal I must submit to him. The slave has the goal of getting food. To achieve that goal he has to submit to his master. That is how the goal is measured.
I totally get that. But there is something crucial you do not get.
Not all goals are worth having. You see, some goals are simply not compatible with self-respect. At that point you have to make a choice. I choose self-respect. You choose women.
Achieving success in social interactions through faking yourself is not, in my view, compatible with self-respect. Assuming such a tactic can even work, which I deny.
As far as I am concerned, the only way to approach social interactions that is compatible with self-respect is to seek out and find those people who admire and appreciate me for who I AM (not necessarily the fake person I am now in attempt to be liked, but the person I am when I am genuinely living out my own values).
It is amusing that just above you seem to reject that your goal is to try and please everyone, and then immediately after you say your goal is have the greatest success in social interactions possible. Do you see a contradiction?
Koani, I never said it is your *sole* source. It is ONE of your sources. That is not compatible with self-respect.
I think the issues are pretty clear for everyone involved, and men can make their choice. Anything hard and excellent and requiring courage is always for the few. That is why most men will choose game (and never get the women they desire). And I would not have it any other way.
I’m late to the game, but well said.
Simon, I have a friend from college, who is now working on her masters, and is very into feminism and green save the planet crap. I know this girl, she is very smart, and I’ve talked to her about some of this stuff, but it does not matter. The problem has nothing to do with hashing out the logic. The problem is that she has gotten her wires crossed and is pursuing a misguided effort to increase her SMV (which if I’m being honest is probably at about a 5) through pursuing popular causes. I was not able to figure that out before learning game.
As I look back on both college and high school, I can tell you that every single teacher that was loved by most of the students, whether they knew it or not, practiced game quite well. And for every teacher that was disliked or ridiculed by their students, I can now tell you exactly why based on game theory.
Politicians who do well in interviews have good game. Those that do poorly do not.
When I’m reading a book or watching a movie or a TV show, and a romantic relationship being portrayed just does not work it is because the relationship goes against game theories. And that’s not just me projecting my beliefs onto the medium, it’s always backed up by reviewers that presumably know nothing of game.
And then there is the obvious that Koanic already pointed out, which is that it helps in LTR. My friend who is in a LTR has started employing just little things, like instead of asking his GF “Wanna go get something to eat?” he now just says “Get ready we are going out to eat”. It’s not much of a change, but he is now a true believer as they now have significantly fewer fights.
“I choose self-respect. You choose women.” lol
(for those who didn’t catch it, I’m laughing at the idea of self-respect and getting women being mutually exclusive)
Titian, out of morbid curiosity, exactly which game principle do you believe will compromise your dignity? I mean can you describe a social scenario where you have some dignity saving action that runs contrary to game theory and then same dancing monkey action that follows game theory?
Chum those waters!
I’ve checked the demographics viewing men’s rights websites, and they are on average, not middle-aged men stitched up by family courts, but younger men unhappy with the deal on offer in the first place.
If you want more action from men’s rights activists taking action, then take action by helping my lawsuit v LSE’s Gender Institute: sexismbusters
“To answer your question – and the fact that you ask this means you know almost nothing about Game – Game solves your wife leaving you by making you better at LTRs, so it never happens unless you let it.”
Bullshit. Just look at Mystery’s current situation. Take a look at Tyler Durden (Owen Cook)’s situation. And these are the 2 biggest names in PUA/game, not a couple of keyboard jockeys. Game cannot and will not prevent a woman from wreaking havoc on your life.
Booch,
Doing anything, anything at all, that you would not normally do with your buddies to get a girl is a form of supplication, and as such is not compatible with self-respect. Acting aloof when feeling cheerful. Trying to be charming when feeling aloof. Pretending to be angry when you are indifferent. Being indifferent when you are angry.
Standing in specific ways instead of not giving a shit how you stand because you are not preoccupied with how others perceive you.
Bragging (DHVing). Negging. Overcoming bitch shields instead of walking away. Being *indirect* rather than upfront and fearless (that is particularly contemptible, especially since you are a fool if you think the girl does not know what you are up to, and all you accomplish is making her think you lack the courage to be upfront about your intentions.)
The problem with all this is that it is all an attempt to prove to the girl that you are worthy of her. You are the suppliant and she is the judge. You are putting yourself in an inferior position from the get go.
It is all a form of *sucking up* to someone. That is not compatible with self-respect. Doing anything out of the ordinary for the purpose of making others like you is sucking up. It is NEVER compatible with self-respect.
The problem is that you are not doing things because they represent who you are or your values, but because you think she will like them. You dance to her tune not your tune. That is fundamentally not compatible with self-respect.
The preoccupation with how others, especially women, see and judge you rather than being indifferent to it. In fact, game an take an inherently self-respecting thing and make it into a form of supplication. For instance, not buying a girl a drink because you think it will make her more attracted to you, rather than because you respect yourself too much to bribe another person to spend time with you. Why you do things matter. Your motivations have an effect on your mental state. When you cultivate the mindset of doing things to be liked by women, you inevitably feel weak, and begin to act weak. Developing a preoccupation with what women think of your behavior will have a disastrous long-term effect on the health of your psyche.
The very concept game is based on, more than any specific tactic (although most of the tactics, even on their own, are not self-respecting), the idea that it is your job to prove to the girl that you are worthy of her, the idea that you have to fake yourself to be liked, that you have to *do* anything at all that does not represent who you are to be liked by her, is unworthy of the self-respecting man. The need to fake yourself.
Self-respect demands that we dont compromise our values to be liked by others. If I dont feel like being an *asshole*, I am not going to be one. Conversely, if I dont feel like being ingratiatingly charming, I wont be.
In other words, self-respect that you dance to your own tune, it demands autonomy, and not dancing to anothers tune.
If you want a really eye opening and exhausting explanation, check out this blog – http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/.
Aleknovy.com is also a brilliant analyst of how game is essentially pussy begging, but some (weak and humorless) people cant handle his abrasive style, although I think thats a shame because he is something of an erratic genius.
If you are really interested in understanding these concepts, you should check out these blogs.
i don’t know any MRA’s but most hip and oh-so cool snapper-worshipping-while-pretending-not-to gamers are definitely not manly. decadents never are.
“Aleknovy.com is also a brilliant analyst”
lmfao. Novy is a troll.
Titian, swing and a miss.
Anyone who argues that an action or activity is always wrong solely on the basis of motive that they impugn on to those who engage in those activities is an idiot. I’ve been to Aleknovy’s blog before and even slogged through a few articles before coming to the same conclusion. It’s stupid because you and Aleknovy presume to completely know the hearts and minds of all game theorists. Just about any action can have good or bad motives behind it. You problem seems to be an inability to abstract actions from motives.
That said, you assumption of motive is pretty bad. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to not buy a girl drink because your dancing to her tune or whatever. But no, people who practice game don’t buy girls drinks in exchange for the right to talk to her because they have been deprogrammed from the belief that girls are worthy of getting stuff in order to gain the right to talk to them. Not putting the pussy on a pedestal is actually not putting pussy on a pedestal. Its not some crazy reverse psychology.
Booch, gamers say they take certain actions to get girls. They make it quite clear that is their motive – *I* am hardly *imputing* it to them. They state it quite clearly. Are you now claiming that *I* am imputing to gamers that they are doing what they do in order to get girls? Interesting.
Not buying a girl a drink in order to get her to like you is game. Not buying her a drink because you have decided she is not worthy sounds like MGTOW. Whatever it is, it is not game. Game is about taking actions to GET GIRLS.
The difference is, the gamer will not buy the drink and then stick around to see if his tactic *worked* (and do more tactics). The guy who does not buy drinks because he thinks girls are not worthy will just walk away not caring if his tactic *worked*, because it was not a tactic.
I dont know about you, but no great mental gymnastics seems involved in trying to get a girl to be impressed with you by not buying her drinks. Gamers do it all the time.
Now, I made quite clear that some actions are degrading in themselves (most game actions), and some are degrading depending on the motive. I was quite clear there were two separate, but related, issues
This is an example of an action that is inherently neutral but can be degrading depending on the motive. A guy who is naturally social but fakes being aloof in order to be liked by girls is degrading himself. A guy who is naturally aloof and is simply expressing his natural state is not degrading himself.
See the difference? Seems pretty obvious to me.
Her are some examples of actions that are degrading whatever the motive. Plowing ahead to *get past* a girls bitch shield by proving yourself is degrading whatever the motive. Bragging (DHVing) is always degrading. Being *indirect* is always degrading. Standing certain specific ways to avoid being seen negatively.
Not putting girls on a pedestal means not doing anything to make her like you, because you ARE better than her. Game says you have to do things to make her like you, because who you ARE is not enough to get her. Game is just a refined way of putting pussy on a pedestal.
I am sorry you did not like Aleknovy, personally I think he is brilliant, and lots of guys were awoken from the trance by his *shock therapy*, but I realize he is too much for some guys. Why not read the other blog I linked to? Its the same ideas, explained much more thoroughly, and with less *shock*.
You are halfway there Booch. You have potential to awake from the trance.
Tom, you may be right. I’m only going off of what I read, which is inherently biased towards authorship, not readership.
I’m not totally against working within the system by fighting those lawsuits, as long as you don’t feed the system any further with cash. But I don’t think change will ultimately come from this direction – i.e., I think it’s hopeless until collapse.
The better thing to do is to clarify the accountability of those running the country ever more leftwards in all ways, so that the blowback will be properly directed. That means ceasing to indulge their desire to keep up the pretense of a genuine power struggle. This is what Mencius Moldbug recommends.
Pete, you’re an idiot. Not all Game branches are good at LTRs, and not all Game gurus are stable people primarily interested in LTRs. In fact, someone who becomes a Game guru is very likely to NOT be primarily interested in LTRs, with a few notable exceptions, Athol Kay being one.
Titian continues to demonstrate why this article needed to be written.
Fred – I know a pussy-worshipper or two as well, and it’s not pretty, I agree. I wouldn’t call them real men. Just sophisticated boys. But there’s a difference between a pussy-worshipper – someone’s who’s compromised his manhood to chase tail, or else never had it – and a man with a very high sex drive, such as Roosh V.
You may not admire or wish to emulate Roosh’s life choices, but he’s not making them from a place of weakness, and he isn’t compromising his core masculinity.
Thanks for the entertainment guys, haven’t laughed this much for a while..
The victory will not come by MRA way of obtaining some rights. They are still begging women and manginas to give them those rights after all and are still depndant on them.
The vicroty can only come from every man on planet (or at least a lage majority) learning game and understanding female nature – all man becoming each others buddies and mentors and collectively ignoring the accusations of women and putting them all in their places.
The problem is not in women. The problem is in the lac kof unity between men. Manginas punish and fight against other man to be allowed to serve women. Men must be united and only common knowledge of truth that game provides can accomplish that. Men must stop fightin each other for women and instead give each other tips how to rule over women like game community does. men must ruule over women as a group ruling over individualistic narcisstic creatures. Then men will win. For now men have tried to rule over the group of women individuallly, mocking and punishing their fellow men, by being manginas. Therefore they have brought the world to its present state.
Titian, hoo boy.
I’ll try and hopefully you’ll see the errors.
1 all actions advocated by game are motivated solely by a persons sex drive. Any other motivation and it is no longer game.
2 any action that is taken with the motive of getting sex (or building attraction) is degrading to the actor.
3 any action that is taken with the motive of getting sex is pedestaling because sex is never worth any effort beyond things that you would do without a sex motive.
Number one is just projection. You hate women, so anytime any women does something like asking you to buy her a drink you say that a man has to walk away. A man can not buy a drink for the right reasons and still want to talk to the girl. For those of us who understand women, the idea of talking to them is not always degrading.
Number two, again clearly there is a lot of unsuccessful interaction with women going on here to make you think like this. MGTOW is stupid for the same reason that being a vegan is stupid. Sex is a biological need. We can live without it, just as a person can live without meat, but to do so is to deny your nature. The whole thing sounds no different than a man say “I didn’t stop hunting because I’m no good at it. I stopped hunting because I’m not a meat beggar. I have my dignity sir.”
Number three, do I really need to say anything? Most men’s activities that are done in the pursuit of sex are not all frustrated, and therefore it is not degrading.
If your trying to climb a rock wall and always fail, its true that each subsequent attempt to climb the wall and subsequent failure will sap some dignity. But don’t think that your emotions wrapped up in failure apply to men who can climb the wall, or even enjoy climbing the wall. By saying “Every time you climb that wall you just putting it on a pedestal” you just highlight your own failure.
MRAs come in two groups:
(1) Men who want to reverse the inverted society.
(2) FMRAs (http://www.groin.com/puas/) who want to become feminists for men’s equality even though that equality will cause the same problems we see now.
The first group know what they’re talking about; the second group are lost, including the PUAs.
I need to proof read. I meant to write “I’ll try and break down your argument into its logical parts and hopefully you’ll see the errors.”
@Booch
your response is typical psychohistory aimed at avoiding the commenter. your response can be summed up like this: “hate, hate , hete, OMG, it is because you hate them, unlike i who looooooves them sooooo much but pretend not too because you hate.”
how do you know if he “hates” them?
does it matter, does it disprove anything if you insinuate that me hates?
you hate-pussies are the most pseudo-intellectuals imaginable.
do you “love” Boochie honey, well do ya?
@Brett
oh no Brett! did you say that PUA’s are lost!!! my word, that is hate. you clearly are against them because you hate do to hate and failure and hate and demonstrating value and….and….hate!
tell him Booch!
You cant be a FMRA no such thing, theyre called manginas, or eunuchs
Feminist bitches’ve stated clearly they want to wipe out men, supporting something so moronic, isnt even close to being a mra, unless you enjoy eating out with lesbians & sperm donors …
“Violence and bloodshed are the answer to miscarriages of justice, as I had already state previously.”
-So how did it work out for you when you were sent to prison? Did game/PUA help out with the relationships you developed in the big house?
“The vicroty can only come from every man on planet (or at least a lage majority) learning game and understanding female nature – all man becoming each others buddies and mentors and collectively ignoring the accusations of women and putting them all in their places.”
-Now there’s something I’d like to see but it’s definitely not happening here. How do men become buddies and mentors when they crap on other men who don’t measure up to their own personal standards and don’t care about the men who slip through the cracks?
I believe this discussion is not productive and should be shut down.
Men are not powerful enough to afford a schism between themsleves.
MRA and Game do not exclude each other.
Game is like surviving attacks of wild animals and defeating them while MRA is building a safe fort that would protect us from such attacks.
Both must be done simutaneously. The building must go on, but we must somehow live while it isn’t finished.
In other words Game and MRA both are important but neither are the final solution
The final solution is unity between men and both Game and MRA should start promoting it.
Men must unite against manipulations of women
This can be achieved both by understanding of their legal manipulations(MRA) and biological manipulations (Game)
We must educate our fellow men. Some would listen if we talk about MRA, some if we talk about Game. Both tools are too valuable to discard. But Game is more primal as biology is more primal to legal system.
There’s no schism. Just some idiots on both sides who need mocking.
Some of you MRAs are so sensitive to criticism. PUAs go through a devastating process of self-criticism, both individually and towards each other.
And of course it’s usually the MRAs who kick things off by tromping into the PUA-sphere and bleating away. Then cry “no fair” when the guns get turned their way…
Booch
*…..umber one is just projection…..*
You are telling me that I am projecting because I say gamers do what they do to make women like them? I think we have entered the theatre of the absurd when a gamer denies that he does what he does in order to get sex. But on another level it shows that you implicitly realize that trying to get women to like you is pussy begging and so felt compelled to deny it. I think you should meditate on that for a few moments.
Like I said, its about motives. If she disrespected you by suggesting that you need to bribe her to spend time with her, and you refuse the bribe in order to make her like you, and continue talking to her in order to make further efforts to make her like you, you are degrading yourself. This would be game.
If you refuse the bride out of self-respect and continue talking to her, say, because she is a business colleague and you have to get some work done, that is not degrading. This would have nothing to do with game.
See? Its about motives.
I realize that sex is a biological desire (I deny it is a NEED), and NOWHERE did I say men should not go after sex. I myself have a healthy sex drive and indulge it regularly. What I said was that men should not do anything to *make* women attracted to them, because that is pussy begging. Instead, I said men should develop themselves into the sort of person THEY personally admire and then SEEK OUT those women who naturally admire them for who they ARE. They should not change themselves to fit in with what women desire. Doing anything *special* that is above your baseline personality level that you have with your buddies is a form of supplication.
You are trapped in a false dichotomy, that either you must actively do things to be attractive to women, or you wont get laid. What this reveals is that you think who you ARE is inadequate. Its a self-esteem issue, and I know it can be terrifying.
You are terrified that who you are when you are not faking yourself to be liked just might not be sufficient to get women. I sympathize with that. What you must realize is that faking yourself to be liked will not make you more liked, just LESS respected. It will also make you feel even more like shit inside.
It can be terrifying, but the solution is to stop faking yourself and stop trying to make others like you. At first it can take an incredible amount of courage and back bone, but it comes easier over time. Besides, all excellent things in this world take courage and back bone – otherwise, they would be common.
One thing women need before they can be attracted to you is to respect you, and doing things to make her like you because you think who you ARE is inadequate will forfeit that respect. Now, please note I do not say respect is SUFFICIENT for a woman to like you. It is not. It is just one indispensible element. She may still not be attracted to you for a host of other reasons.
Please note also, the question of whether or not women are attracted to respect is SEPARATE from whether trying to be liked is compatible with self-respect.
You are claiming that the dignity of an action is measured by whether it succeeds in attracting women. I deny that. Even if game succeeded it would be degrading. Avoiding a beating by a bully by submitting would be degrading even if it was successful.
Brett hit the nail on the head. It seems a lot of MRAs are actually FMRAs. Look at the similarities.
They use shaming language, especially in regards to game, in order to get the younger generation, which makes up most of the PUAs, to fall in line. FMRAs tell PUAs that the pursuit of sex is degrading in the same way that Feminists tell young girls all men are rapists who only want to objectify them. They also create strawman arguments and focus on the PUAs who only define themselves by the way women view them.
Roissy and Roosh are obviously both fall into the PUA category, though they do address the MRM occasionally. However neither of them defines or assesses their value based on women’s perception of them. In fact a big part of their “game” is not giving a fuck about women think and acting in a way that demonstrates this.
At best the MRM can only hasten the demise of the current feminist movement, but they are not necessary for this to happen because feminism is a system that sows the seeds of its own destruction the more it gets what it wants.
I think that on some level the MRM realizes this and it pisses them off that they are not the only game in town. That along with the fact that they can’t get the younger PUA generation to do what they want, because hey, telling people to stop getting laid is kind of a hard sell.
Societies have always had MRA’s, but as men arent retards like most women,
they didnt give themselves a gender specific title, they chose to call themselves, militias, or minute men & chose to fight for the rights of everyone
The loss of men allowed to raise a family, irrespective of the technological is a societal disaster & society suffers as a whole,
technology exists because of a culture of progress through mans needs of procreation
The courts & laws MRA’s address arent caused by solely by feminism or political correctness, they are caused by the rights of the few at the expense of the rights of the many
Women chose to fight for the rights of a single gender, instead of the rights of society as a whole, & theyre paying the price in the form of ghettos of single moms
Ethnics chose to fight for the rights of a single race, instead of the rights of the society they live in, & theyre paying the price in the form of ghettos & grinding poverty, & massive under education, & exploitation by government
Which is why MRA’s & PUA’s exist, to fight for the right of society to procreate, & progress as a whole
PUA is not gender specific, women are encouraged to use the natural game available to them & men are encouraged to develop game they wld’ve developed naturally if the rights of the few, ie women & ethnics, werent used over the rights of the many
MRA’s arent exactly opposed to the REAL rights of women, as long as they dont oppose the rights of many, mras want women to have children & families
Men, specifically MRA’s isnt exactly about mens rights, it is about mens rights as keepers of society vs government
Women & blacks & the ethnics have a none-choice, choose government over hard working men as keepers of society & keep your ghettos & slums of single moms & grinding poverty
Or allow men to keep fighting for the rights of the many, as theyve always done
Throw away the stupidity of the rights of the few, fighting for the rights of a single a gender, or a single ethnic race, & join men in fighting for the rights of many
You cannot take into account the rights of a few, without observing the needs of the many
Mra’s applying feminist tactics is clearly wrong, mra’s & mgtow are specifically designed to give men a viable option without women, so damaged by courts & their children, homes & families stripped from them, contact with women & the society which legally allowed it to occur, is all but a reminder of how they were destroyed
Men so destroyed have literally no other choice, but to become mgtow, other men seeing the same choose mgtow, to prevent it from happening to them
Trying to imply feminist tactics to mra’s, is ridiculous, as women have never been assraped in court & society the way men have been for centuries, first by traditionalists as fodder for governments & stayathome moms, & now complete & outright destruction of men even wanting to participate in raising a family or making a living, ie rampant affirmative action in universities & stem industries
MRA’s & MGTOW dont want equality for men, they dont want affirmative action for men, or politically correct grovelling by manginas, they want freedom to raise their families & earn a living, without state intervention, something men have always naturally fought for
Btw i forgot to add mra’s dont want to fund or empower stayathome moms, or traditionalists
They want to remain as keepers of society & keepers of family, irrespective of the traditional structure, hence ltr’s over marriage
The real fight & description of MRA’s is the right of men as keepers of society vs the usurption of men as keepers of society, vs government
This is why men are hit so hard by government & feminists, men are the gatekeepers of society
“The courts & laws MRA’s address arent caused by solely by feminism or political correctness, they are caused by the rights of the few at the expense of the rights of the many
-Lets put feminism and political correctness in the correct contest. Traditional paternalistic and hierarchal structures have aided and enforced a female-centric value system. Most of the judges, lawyers, cops and politicians that enforce the female-centric value system do so for the favor of women. Political correctness is just another traditional social code. Feminism is ill-defined and as some attempt to define it as a socialist conspiracy, we should realize that socialism for women and harsh capitalism for men has paternalist roots.
“Which is why MRA’s & PUA’s exist, to fight for the right of society to procreate, & progress as a whole”
-Can you provide an example of MRA’s fighting for the right to procreate, other than procreation creating paternalistic laws that are discriminatory to men? Where are PUA’s fighting for any rights and what do you mean by “progress”?
“Men, specifically MRA’s isnt exactly about mens rights, it is about mens rights as keepers of society vs government”
-Can you also provide an example of MRA’s fighting to be the keepers of society? It sounds like a feminist argument about patriarchy.
“You cannot take into account the rights of a few, without observing the needs of the many.”
-You give yourself too much self importance to think that you can direct the activism of others. I take into account the needs of the many men who end up on the streets, in prison and the marginalized lack of male students in post secondary education?
Just to clarify, I said it was about motives, but that is not strictly true. Or at least thats not the best way to put it. It is really about *what* you do, not *why* you do it. If you do anything *special* beyond your normal baseline personality in order to be liked you are supplicating. What that would be is measured by what your baseline personality is, so its different for each person. But its still *what* you do, just measured against the context of who you are, and not *why* you do it.
Not buying a girl a drink as a bribe, it does not really matter *why* you dont do it. Not doing it is consistent with self-respect. Staying around after you have been insulted by the request for a bribe, though, is not consistent with self-respect. If the girl later hunts you down and pursues you, thats fine.
@Ubermind: Yeah, that’s what I tried to say, too, but Big Man Pauline told me that he wasn’t interested in such an alliance and to go fuck myself, which is obviously projecting ahahahaha.
“Pete, you’re an idiot. Not all Game branches are good at LTRs, and not all Game gurus are stable people primarily interested in LTRs. In fact, someone who becomes a Game guru is very likely to NOT be primarily interested in LTRs, with a few notable exceptions, Athol Kay being one.”
Your the idiot if you think either Mystery or Owen Cook (Tyler Turden) had a choice in the matter. Have you even researched their situations? I suggest you do. Owen, who is supposed to be able to attract the “hottest babes” on his own terms, got the wool pulled over his naive eyes by an ugly border jumping Mexicana looking to get knocked up with an anchor baby and an American baby daddy to foot the bill.
Her agenda worked smoothly, as planned. “oops! my birth control pills didn’t work this time!”….. and Cook fell for it hook, line and sinker, baby. Hook, line and sinker.
“Your the idiot if you think either Mystery or Owen Cook (Tyler Turden) had a choice in the matter.”
Congrats on refuting a point I never made.
“Owen, who is supposed to be able to attract the “hottest babes” on his own terms,”
No, that’s Mystery. And “attract” != “manage in an LTR”, dimwit.
PUAs keep insisting that they’re not slaves to women’s whims…
So riddle me this–
–assuming the standard cachet of PUA behaviors really are what attracts the most women
– let’s pretend the laws of attraction magically change tomorrow and suddenly the exact opposite of PUA behaviors become what’s attractive to the most women
– in this scenario, would you suddenly switch to doing the exact opposite of what he has been doing and preaching for the past few months, years, etc?
Seriously, all PUAs should do this as a thought experiment. What if tomorrow the following suddenly became true:
– women are not attracted to men who “pass” shit tests and there is almost no chance of sleeping with her if you do “pass.” Would you still bother going through all the effort to pass shit tests? Or would you instead simply leave when a woman shit tests?
– all women stop being attracted to any asshole guys whatsoever, you have a .01% chance of getting laid acting like an asshole. Do you still bother with “asshole game?”
– and so on and so on…
Think of every single thing PUA teaches that you practice and ask yourself if you would keep doing it if it suddenly became unattractive to women. Think some more about whether or not you’d be willing to switch to doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of PUA behaviors to attract women. Then think some more about whether or not you’re a slave to women’s whims.
lol, this is great. It’s gratifying to know I’m so far ahead of the field wrt social dynamics. You’re all clueless.
You’re not asking the right questions, lads. You’re gonna keep failing at life if you don’t work out what they are.
An effective PUA must accept the realities of the female psyche BEFORE risking his freedom and resources to the divorce-industrial complex, or to a paternity suit.
For this reason, a PUA who wishes to stay a PUA should either get a vasectomy or find a way to continually carry a dozen or more industrial strength condoms.
MRAs learned the mysteries of the female psyche the hard way – through experience. MRAs were, in general, deceived by feminist dogma that permeated the media, academia, governments, and most of the West.
When women and femimen lied to MRAs (or told them things about women that were simply incorrect) MRAs, being the generally trusting and honorable types they often are, took them at their word.
MRAs paid a terrible price for this – their worldview was cruelly revealed as based on lies, their finances were stripped bare by the courts, their very manhood was attacked, and they were often kicked out of their own home and stripped of their parental rights.
Small wonder they are bitter.
A cynical PUA would likely cackle at their naivete, between downing Cipro (to treat gonorrhea) with a vodka-red bull and practicing his “routines” in front of a large mirror.
But really, the existence of one led to the birth of the other. The hideous selfishness and idiocy of feminism led directly to the destruction of the Western family, and to the father, chubby and impotent, impoverished and abandoned, as an MRA.
His son, rather tragically, learned from this. Never ever marry. Never trust another, particularly a female. Love is biology, not spirituality, and is not the way to happiness, but merely an appetite to be slaked. Personalities are to be manufactured, and real life is not in the home, but in the nightclub.
Both are fairly tragic figures. At least the MRA might reconcile with his children. The PUA virtually guarantees himself a life of emptiness and emotional exhaustion.
But on the whole, the worst losers of them ALL will unquestionably be women. The men they want most will either break their hearts or deny them children, permanent companionship, protection, and love.
And that, IMHO, is the saddest fact of all. The very tenets of feminism, that men are enemies to be defeated, will leave women far more miserable than if feminism never reared its selfish, hateful head.
Your logic is flawed. PUAs adopt a different mindset and use tricks to get women they normally might not be able to get “naturally”. Why is being successful at achieving an objective being a slave?
The above comment on self-respect hit the nail on the head, and I do think that the better parts of “game,” on the highest levels, may help teach men to respect themselves.
And for any healthy, long term, loving relationship with a quality female, male self respect is essential.
And so the MRA movement collapsed into farce.
We’re done here gentlemen, pack your bags.
Nice dream, shame it went nowhere.
It is the ancient and sacred rite which men have practiced throughout the world’s history to maintain their autonomy. This is known as “honor killing”
Savola sounds like some dweeb ‘tween or 20-something loser who has played one too many video game.
Zeroderma-Your logic is flawed. PUAs adopt a different mindset and use tricks to get women they normally might not be able to get “naturally”.
Yeah, It’s that hat trick that Mystery uses that gets them everytime. And Rosie reminds me of some dweeb trying to teach even bigger dweebs how to talk to girls. These losers are the same types who would buy books like, How To Pick Up Girls, forty years ago. I really have to laugh at you young loser boys who think there is something called “game theory” as if it were some sort of science rather that something invented by a conman loser to sell to the inept and gullible. There is nothing a dweeb can say to a female that will make any difference in her attraction to you. Within the first 2 seonds she’ll size you up, all 5’4″ of you, look at your cheap Kenneth Cole shoes and geeky clothes and mentally classify you as either a guy who washes dishes or some mama’s boy who wanks to internet porn. You’ll be like a door to door vaccuum salesman who isn’t even able to get his foot in the door to give his spiel lol
If PUA required acting like a bitch instead of becoming a better man, then far fewer men would be interested in it, including me.
But guess what? Women are, after all, attracted to real men. Mystery is Game generation 1.0. Criticizing PUA by parodizing him is like saying computers suck because DOS doesn’t have a GUI.
lol, Joseph, how does PUA help you become a better man? Is it when you use it to pretend to be indifferent to your gf to stimulate her fear of abandonment, or when you make her work for a reward because you saw it on the Dog Whisperer?
lol.
I know what kind of man I want to be, and that isn’t it. You can rationalise these things all you want, but in the end, you will fail because you’re not being truthful; you’re engaging in the aeons old sapiens game of self-delusion.
Self-delusion typically doesn’t end well.
You’ve said it yourself, 99% of what you know will be irrelevant in a year, and guess what, game is going to be one of them, and boy, it’ll hit you in a big way. Like when you discovered you were an aquatic ape.
Good luck.
(“You may not admire or wish to emulate Roosh’s life choices, but he’s not making them from a place of weakness, and he isn’t compromising his core masculinity.”
HAHAHAHAHA, I cannot believe you actually think that’s true. Roosh is just a nerd who has constructed an ultra-tight facade of coolness. He is always concerned whether it will be discovered that he is still a nerd underneath that ultra-cool surface. That’s why he needs to get laid often. Without getting laid the old self-doubts he had return, and he begins the epic-death spiral of the nerd PUA.
But yeah, at least he isn’t compromising his core masculinity. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)
Poor Simon.
PUA, at its best, is not about pretending or doing things for external reasons. It’s about becoming congruently and genuinely changed.
I used an understanding of the core principles of value and social dynamics, among other things, to craft a better self. I distilled the principles of this identity into Koanic Soul. So yes, the only time I think about Game nowadays is when writing.
And yes, Roosh’s nihilistic ending point is a far more masculine state than his mangina beginning point. To claim otherwise is obtuse.
Stop ego war.
The féminists smiles.
gee whatta strange coincidence! — recently the m.r.m. is making rapid progress in freeing minds from the MaTricks, and suddenly, here come attacks from a group of mere Players, claiming they’re part of the m.r.m. while simultaneously undermining the movement and its activists
sounds like the m.r.m. is starting to make the PTB and certain vested interests VERY nervous lol!!
if the perception in the public mind can be shifted to believe the m.r.m. is just a bunch of woman-haters PLUS a bunch of post-adolescent pick-up jockeys, well, you get the idea
soon the m.r.m. would come to be associated with pussybegging solipsism, and lose its authenticity and potency in the public consciousness
who benefits from that? our femsupremacist culture and our femsupremacist State
In Mala Fide indeed
this roissy character grts too much credit (and he’s already a full-time P.R. machine as it is)
some of his writings are pretty good – the ones that stick to pointing out the realities (and faults) of western women
but his cult of Gamers is just sad, and takes advantage of the post-feminist generations of fatherless, and just plain lost, young men
if rossy and others want to write incisive critiques of our woman-worshipping societies, great . . . but the m.r.m. doesnt need, or want, the PUA/Gamer cult, nor the associations that come with that self-centered lifestyle
nice try, tho! gloria steinem and andrea dworkin would be very pleased! LOL
“Your the idiot if you think either Mystery or Owen Cook (Tyler Turden) had a choice in the matter.”
Congrats on refuting a point I never made.
“Owen, who is supposed to be able to attract the “hottest babes” on his own terms,”
No, that’s Mystery. And “attract” != “manage in an LTR”, dimwit.”
You’re the dimwit. Or else you’re purposely being disingenious in order to keep this tit for tat going and garner hits to your own personal blog.
Game claims to teach men how to attract and indeed manage women (even harems) on their own terms, not womens’ terms. It claims to “open the eyes” of men to womens’ bag of tricks and to out-wit them in their own game. But alas! One of the biggest PUA gurus himself is a victim of the oldest female trick in the book – “accidental” pregnancy.
And not just any ol’ accidental pregnancy, but the scheming of an illegal Mexcana border jumper who purposely went on the prowl for simp with money. 2 birds with 1 stone. This woman gets an anchor baby who will automatically be an American citizen upon his birth, AND she’s got a simp with money who will pay for the baby for the rest of her life.
Bravo, seniorita. Bravo!
You’re just clueless dude.
RSD has never taught LTR game, and probably never will.
*…..Game claims to teach men how to attract and indeed manage women (even harems) on their own terms, not womens’ terms. …*
Thats the claim. The reality is that it teaches men to get women on WOMENS terms. In fact, ANYTHING that teaches you how to get women MUST do so on womens terms. It MUST involve finding out what women want and giving it to them. Thats why the very concept of learning how to *make* women attracted to you is illegitimate. A radical notion few can grasp. It is too subtle for most. That difference between the claim and the obvious reality is just one more of the contradictions game excels in.
Unless, of course, you are talking about rapine and pillage ;) That of course does not involve learning what women want and giving it to them.
“If PUA required acting like a bitch instead of becoming a better man, then far fewer men would be interested in it, including me.”
Really? That may be the case for you and some others but I highly doubt it is for the majority of PUA practitioners. They start out thinking women will like them as doormats and then PUA tells them that women will like them as “alphas,” so they adopt an alpha persona to get women. Some may go through a self reflective phase and start realizing their dependency on women’s validation, thus learning the importance of having core values that aren’t dependent on external rewards, but most just keep up the “alpha” facade because they think it’s what women want.
If the rules of the game suddenly switched to male doormats being attractive to females I’m quite confident PUAs would switch to “doormat game” in the blink of an eye.
Really, when’s the last time a gamer gave advice to do something or be something because it’s the worth doing or being in and of itself? I can actually think of a few examples but they’re few and far between.
*f PUA required acting like a bitch instead of becoming a better man, then far fewer men would be interested in it, including me*
I see no evidence for this. History shows that the opposite is more likely to be true.
The masses are weak and like to do easy things. Game says you can be weak while pretending to be strong. That is far more likely to appeal to the masses than something that says you must have genuine back bone and courage.
BTW since Roosh has been brought into this I might as well let him make my points for me. Direct quote from his recent article “You did this to me:”
“You made me learn game. You made it very clear that being nice, chivalrous, and patient was not the way to have sex with you. You let me know that being your friend, listening to your problems, and supporting you through hard times would only result in me getting to hear you fuck other guys. You pushed me to approach a million women to improve my ability to get laid.”
See? Roosh isn’t driven by something within himself or by the drive to pursue some lofty goal outside of himself; he isn’t self driven at all– he’s driven around like a dog on a leash by the desires of trashy sluts. Whatever he thinks trashy sluts want– he’s willing to become. And he won’t even claim to have had free will in it! He’s seething with resentment because he was supposedly “made” to become a man he despises. Read the full article, it goes on and on with the “you made me,” line.
Of course, he has plenty of other articles directly contradicting the “you made me,” and claiming to be a self developed man or whatever. Such is the perverse schizophrenia of nihilism.
*….Game claims to teach men how to attract and indeed manage women (even harems) on their own terms, not womens’ terms…..*
*On your own terms* means you dont adapt yourself to others. Others adapt themselves to YOU. Since game teaches adapting oneself to what women want in a man, it is not learning to attract women on a mans own terms.
One of the most fascinating features of game to me is how its tendency to come up with these fundamental, definition-level contradictions. Its really quite incredible. It would furnish good material for a paper on psychology.
Artok, thats a brilliant point about roosh, btw. I read that piece without quite making that connection, although it is obvious in retrospect. In that piece Roosh admits to being utterly driven by what women want. Yet if challenged, he will of course claim that game is about being his own man.
Game DEPENDS on these kinds of definition-level contradictions in order to appeal to men. No one wants to admit they are being ruled by women, even if they are. Elaborate charades are necessary to hide the truth from oneself.
“RSD has never taught LTR game, and probably never will.”
Precisely my point. Owen had no intentions of getting into an LTR with this illegal immigrant and just see – he’s living with her, paying all her bills, and changing the diapers of her anchor baby.
Well played, seniorita. Very, very well played.
“but I highly doubt it is for the majority of PUA practitioners.”
Well, most people are idiots.
“Some may go through a self reflective phase and start realizing their dependency on women’s validation, thus learning the importance of having core values that aren’t dependent on external rewards,”
RSD among others teaches this.
“Really, when’s the last time a gamer gave advice to do something or be something because it’s the worth doing or being in and of itself?”
Try Mark from Practical Pickup, now Post: Masculine. He does it all the time. So does Vox Day.
The best PUA gurus understand that feedback from women merely exposes pre-existing character flaws.
Roosh’s “you did this to me” article was rhetorical irony. Causation is not zero sum. Female feedback was the catalyst for Roosh 1. developing a specific skillset tailored to getting tail and 2. correcting character flaws and becoming more genuinely masculine.
Pete, no it’s not precisely your point. It’s precisely the opposite of your point. You said that Mystery and Tyler’s LTR results invalidated Game, because they’re Game gurus, and Game teaches LTR management. I pointed out that THOSE Game gurus do NOT teach LTR management. Even after I SPELLED THIS OUT for you, you STILL replied that this only makes you even more right. You are an unmitigated moron.
I don’t even have to engage you on the details of their LTRs because you’re incapable of constructing a logical argument on the basis of the facts, whatever they may be.
Yep, all the PUA dirty laundry is “hidden in plain sight.” So many of these guys are stuck inside the web and can’t see what’s obvious once you’re outside it and capable of an unbiased analysis.
After enough time and experience though, most of them will start to see the gaping holes.
It is utterly amusing to hear mra’s calling the PUA movement a failure.
The PUA movement has objectively verifiable results. Go to boot camps and watch transformations happen and people getting laid.
Meanwhile, the men’s RIGHTS movement has failed to secure significant additional rights for men.
Would you consider failure to achieve a movement’s primary objective to be “dirty laundry”? Or just an open sewer?
PUAs are not the ones losing to feminists or women.
*……Female feedback was the catalyst for Roosh correcting character flaws and becoming more genuinely masculine…..*
What more can one say about this? If a man does not see a problem with this statement, there is little chance you can argue him into seeing one. If you accept that females are the gatekeepers of what is masculine, and the appropriate judges of your character, then you have lost your way as a man.
And yet this is considered alpha. A man can but weep.
Koanic, just a side note.
You have an interesting point of view about what is losing or winning to feminism.
PUAS get rewarded by women for sex by adapting to what women want. Sounds like a victory for feminism to me.
MRAs do not adapt themselves to women, and have not succeeded in changing society (yet).
Sounds to me that while MRAs may not yet have won against feminism, PUAs have simply surrendered to feminism.
Lol, I realize it takes a logic you do not possess to grasp this, but I get a delicious thrill from noticing just how incoherent your position is. Cheers ;)
“The PUA movement has objectively verifiable results. Go to boot camps and watch transformations happen and people getting laid.”
Just as long as you recognize that’s all it does – improve a man’s chances at getting laid, nothing more and nothing less.
Well I don’t the inclination to waste several hundreds or thousands of dollars to on a bootcamp so I’ll have to pass on that one.
I don’t believe this bootcamps really get guys laid, but even if they did, getting laid isn’t really that impressive. I got my ridiculously socially inept (and then virgin) younger brother laid by putting him in the same space as a drunken party slut and telling her he was leaving for Iraq soon (true) and it was her patriotic duty to please him.
Maybe I should have called it a “bootcamp” and charged him a thousand bucks for it.
Anyhow, I have read a bit of Mark at practicalpickup and for the most part like him(with some caveats). Have you read his posts critical of game? Thing is, very few guys involved in pickup, maybe less than 1% show the kind of wisdom that comes from experience he has. Most people just leave once they see through the charade. I’m surprised you can’t see the difference between him and a Roosh or Roissy. Roosh and Roissy are so far in the delusional deep end of PUA that they don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground so to speak.
You actually do seem a bit more on top of things than your average PUA and I’m sure in a few years or less you’ll start to really see through all the BS and leave it behind, most people start to see through the bs after five years or sometime thereabouts.
As far as MRAs, I’ve got issues with them too, they’re a mixed bunch but quite a few are alright and they’re at least not quite as delusional as PUAs. They’re at least fighting for a cause using semi-rational tactics. PUAs are either self admitted nihilists or nihilists who somehow think they’re fighting for a cause.
What I’d like PUAs to do most is admit that teaching guys to be better at having casual sex doesn’t somehow lead to a restoration of traditional Western patriarchy as so many men have now somehow come to think.
It’s no skin off my back though if PUAs want to keep up their bizarre hedonistic-nihilistic woman worshipping nihilist lifestyle, and even claim this bizarre mindset is “conservative,” as has become fashionable recently. I just prefer to call them on their bs and point out the contradictions so they have a better idea of what they’re really getting themselves into.
I think I have finally understood Koanis distinction between female reaction being merely a feedback mechanism instead of a device for allowing women to define our value for us.
We have already chosen our values without input from women, Koani says. We have chosen to be masculine. However, we have no idea what the masculine is, and cannot judge if we are being masculine or not.
The way we judge if we are being masculine is if women react well to us.
If we had a clear definition of masculine we would be able to judge if we were measuring up to it. We would not need to use female reaction as a feedback mechanism. We could simply look at the definition and see if our actions match it. In fact, we might decide that we are being masculine even if women react badly to us.
However, Koani says that female reaction is the only measure we have of whether we are being masculine.
So basically we have adopted a value system, not let women choose our value system for us. However, we have absolutely no idea what this value system is. We cannot give a single clear sentence to define this value system. But, when women react well to us, we know that we are living up this value system.
So game advocates adopting a value system without being able to define it, and says that female reaction is a measure of how successfully you have adopted this value system.
This is clear because if you could define the value system, you would not need female reaction to judge if you are living up to it. You would simply look and see if your actions match. Further, it would be possible that the female reaction could be wrong. You would have to use your own judgement to decide. However, Koani (and game) says that female reaction are the final arbiters.
Witness the almost incredible word twisting needed to make sense of Koanis position! Sounds almost like this weird mystical religion.
Hmmmmm, I rather think gamers have no value system, and just try to be liked by women. Makes much more sense to me. How about you?
RSD’s notion of “core values” is entirely worthless. It completely misses the point.
As long as you keep asking the question “How can I become more attractive”, or “How can I become dominant, or cool, or alpha”, you’re going to fail. Simple as that.
Game is nothing more than the slave shuckin’ -n- jivin’ to please his master. If the dance routine is good enough, massa might throw the dog a bone(r).
Shit Marple, you’re probably as unnattractive as you are unpleasant. You’re in serious need of an oil change. I can feel the bitterness seething through the monitor. Just picture it, all of that pent up frustration being released like the uncorking of a champagne bottle. I’d fuck you myself, but I don’t do charity work.
I am coming late to the fracas. I’ve been out of the loop for a year or so in a spiritual pilgrimage of sorts. I am looking at this PUA/MRA battle and just shake my head, grinning.
Who CARES?!!!!!!!! Gentlemen?
As a long MGTOWer, I chuckle at some of the straw man representations of MGTOW thrown out by the Game-o-sphere …
1. MGTOWers are bitter, celibate, losers who have failed to pass on their genes.
Ironically, I personally know of more happily married MGTOWers than I do happily married men in the Game-o-sphere. In the later case, Hawaiian Dave and Althol Kay are the only two I’ve come across. As it is, there are men who are into game that are on the traditional MRA/MGTOW boards. They’ve been there for years. The difference being that they haven’t made a cult or religion out of it.
2. MGTOWers/MRAs are old codgers that don’t understand that young men just wanna’ get laid.
That’s downright hilarious. Where have you dudes been!!!? Because in the years of interacting with MRAs and MGTOWers, I have noticed quite a bit of diversity in age, walks of life, and experience among them. On the flip side, I have yet to see one prominent dude in the Roissysphere over the age of 50 or 60. Maybe some Gen Yers are not interested in listening to older MRAs, but I am. As a Gen Xer, I am old enough to see how this garbage went down and due to the perspectives of older men, I know where it’s going to head. If things don’t change, then I fear that game (or the absence thereof) will be the least of anyone’s concerns in the future.
3. MGTOWers and MRAs don’t get results. PUAs get results.
Results at WHAT????!!!! Having sex with an attractive woman? Wow, do you want me to give you a trophy for what I have been to able to do without the benefit of your advice?
You are not rolling back any laws that discriminate against my sex. You are not countering any cultural memes that make my sex the disposable beast of burden or the threat to be eliminated. On the contrary, you spout reductionistic memes about “sperm is cheap, eggs are expensive” and expect me to “not whine” (e.g., not speak out with the truth) about the “natural state of affairs” (e.g., the state of affairs that you have only known since you grew up under a socialist, post-feminist matriarchy that is ultimately unsustainable).
4. MGTOW is unsustainable. Men won’t chose it, because men want to get laid.
Um, all men want to get laid (well, at least 99.9% of them). All men want a million dollars, too. But it’s a matter of priorities. That’s why porn is a multibillion dollar industry and the dating advice/seduction industry isn’t. That’s why Japan is reeling from the “herbivore” phenomenon, and not from any PUA phenomenon. And here’s the irony: On this same site where we have allegations that the men who are not into PUA are old codgers, we have Hawaiian Dave telling younger men to man up as it were because they are spending too time playing video games. Imagine that. Young men are too much like slacker “omegas” or Ghosters or whatever, wheareas we have a game advocate on here sounding like Bill Bennett or Kay Hymowitz. The men of the 21 (or younger) crowd have their priorities – games and porn. Younger men are not fighting like mad to try to live up to the expectations of their female counterparts. They are not AMOGing or DHVing. They are not trying to overcome their “Herb” status in a desperate attempt to bed hotties. Otherwise, we would not have scores of articles indicating the frustration of young women with their slacker male counterparts. So much for males compete/females decide and Maslow’s hierarchy. As it is, I’ve read enough to know that beneath a lot of the Game talk is some nostalgia for traditionalist moorings of masculinity.
Here’s an unnerving truth that you cannot ignore: The Game community is largely skewed and self-selecting by what it offers. That is, men who have self-esteem issues and traditionalist understandings of masculinity and sexuality are the ones initially attracted to the message and thus are ones who make up a large percentage of the community. Admit it. I’m being honest here. A lot of guys sign up for the Game message, not because they are already secure or self-actualized, but because they desperately want help to get laid. So, of course, a lot of the men in the Game feel that sex is a need that men can’t do without! But, um, that observation is no more earth-shattering than noting that fly paper happens to catch a lot of flies.
If you were getting sex from the outset, you would have not likely ended up incessantly reading everything the gurus were spouting. Now would you? Because in real life, me and whole lot of men have gotten lucky without ever hearing about DeAngelo, Jeffries, Roissy, Roosh, Chuck (aka Gucci Little Piggy), Athol Kay, or whoever the latest and greatest flavor is. So, if you drank the feminized Kool-Aid of our culture, visualized your success as a man in terms of how women view you, and came into the Game community with that insecurity, it is little wonder then that you cannot imagine men who truly don’t care to play the game.
I am glad that some of you have gotten confidence and self-esteem. I can’t fault whatever success you have had with women. But you are kidding yourselves if you think you have the One “Blue Pill” or “Killer App” or the Great Answer Uber Alles with regard to living as a men in the early 21st century in the Fematrix. When you take a few common sense principles about interpersonal relations, mate selection, dating, etc. and balloon it into an all-encompassing, reductionist paradigm for how men should live and view themselves, then you are on the fast track to becoming a cult. That is why I don’t fault Game, per se, but I do fault what I call Gameism. That is the thread I see in the discussions about “omegas” and “bitter MRAs” etc. Gameists, like other “true believers” of other movements, suffer from a provincial, rigid, ideological form of thinking that cannot conceive of men living fulfilled lives outside of their belief system. MGTOW does not. How could MGTOW, when it invites you to “go your own way”? Unlike feminism, conservatism, and gameism, MGTOW is about questioning the scripts, not imposing them.
I came into MGTOW, not because I was looking for answers to a sexless life, but because I got tired of the cognitive dissonance that society expects of men — that is, of trying to reconcile the official party line of bull excrement with the reality of things. Again, I don’t fault Game, per se, but I do fault bull excrement. In all kindness, I like to see a little less of it when people talk about MRAs and MGTOWers.
Has anyone here been to the 21 Convention run by Anthony Dream Johnson? Is it positive male empowerment or just another PUA convention?
Shit Marple, you’re probably as unnattractive as you are unpleasant.I’d fuck you myself, but I don’t do charity work
You just take charity. Now go practise on your blow up doll, needledick.
Nope. MRA’S are pussies because they don’t get anything done. Men’s rights ‘activists’ don’t appear to be all that active, at least to people on the outside. To people on the outside it just looks like a bunch of sociopaths who sit around bitching about women all the time. If this movement continues this way without any actual ‘activism’ involved in it, it will surely fail. That’s the simple truth of the matter.
“Anyhow, I have read a bit of Mark at practicalpickup and for the most part like him(with some caveats). Have you read his posts critical of game? Thing is, very few guys involved in pickup, maybe less than 1% show the kind of wisdom that comes from experience he has. Most people just leave once they see through the charade. I’m surprised you can’t see the difference between him and a Roosh or Roissy. Roosh and Roissy are so far in the delusional deep end of PUA that they don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground so to speak.”
Mark’s criticisms of the PUA movement are internal criticisms – Mark is also part of the PUA movement. If you like him, you like the PUA movement, just not all of it.
“You actually do seem a bit more on top of things than your average PUA and I’m sure in a few years or less you’ll start to really see through all the BS and leave it behind, most people start to see through the bs after five years or sometime thereabouts.”
It’s a natural evolution towards mastery. They may no longer actively practice pickup, but they don’t cease to be PUAs in the broad sense unless they reverse the transformation. That is extremely rare.
“What I’d like PUAs to do most is admit that teaching guys to be better at having casual sex doesn’t somehow lead to a restoration of traditional Western patriarchy as so many men have now somehow come to think.”
The system depends on used up Western sluts being able to finagle men into marrying once they hit their sell-by date. PUA increases the SMV and sexual savvy of men, preventing this from happening. It also opens their eyes to the joys of international poontang. Lowering Western female power is critical to undermining feminism and accelerating collapse.
MGTOW, I don’t have a problem with most of what you’re saying, although I didn’t take time to parse all of it. I was going after MRA’s, not MGTOW’s. Two different movements, in my opinion.
Simon, everything you’re saying about RSD leads me to believe that you haven’t actually watched Tyler’s Blueprint.
Tyler’s Blueprint obviously didn’t teach men or himself anything about the cunning nature of women, did it?
What a simp!
Perhaps it’s because “Men’s Rights Activists” serve no legitimate purpose?
Just a thought.
Koanic:
The trouble with your anti-MRA diatribe is that it merely describes a construct which you have assembled in your head. The MRA archetype you are shooting at is at least two things: 1.) Arbitrary, and 2.) Imaginary.
None, but none, of the traits you have listed comes anywhere near to matching the majority of so-called MRAs. And the ensemble of those traits, as you have assembled them, describes a complete mental spook.
Seriously — you are not talking about real people. You are talking about a shoddily constructed stereotype. And you even sound like a feminist at times — they use similar tricks.
Listen, here’s the secret: There is no such thing as an “MRA”. That is only an umbrella word for anybody who 1.) Hates feminism, and 2.) Thinks that men are getting a raw deal. If these qualifications apply to you, then YOU are an MRA — whether you like it or not.
In other words, “MRA” covers a LOT of territory, and in the interest of linguistic purity and intellectual honesty — not to mention political solidarity — you ought stop being petty. And then, give serious thought to what you really mean to say, and find the right words in which to say it.
Rather than sniping at mentational phantoms in a way that is politically destructive.
My honest opinion is that you are only stirring up shit under the prompting of personal (not political, but personal) issues which are riling you for some mysterious reason.
Please make up your mind to be a so-called “MRA”, or else declare yourself a feminist, okay?
Fidel, your reading comprehension and logic skills are clearly not up for this.
I know of at least 2 MRAs who fit this description precisely – WF Price and the aforementioned recumbent bicycler. There goes your thesis.
It is not a binary choice to be either an MRA or a feminist. An MRA is an ACTIVIST for men’s RIGHTS. One can be pro-man without believing in activism or rights as solutions.
All of two, eh? Good sample size there. But I could make similar conclusions about Italians, Pollacks, etc etc….
An “MRA” (Male Renaissance Agitator) is an activist, agent, agitator, actuator, advocate, or ‘artist’ for men’s “rights”. That’s flexible, and leaves a lot open for creativity and mysterious methods. Your conception of MRA-hood is far too narrow. Trust me, it’s a huge tent.
And your bashing and sniping just makes you sound petty. Amuses the feminists, too.
But you are right in a way: the actual binary choice is to be a Feminist or a Non-Feminist.
Still, I see no reason why anybody who is serious about ripping feminism a new one should not call himself an “MRA”, or at the very least respect that word, in theory, as an oppositional category to feminism.
But I’ll share a little secret with ya. I would like to. . . well. . . sort of phase out the word MRA altogether, so that it doesn’t get used much any more. It’s part of my master plan…dig?
So, in your article here, you aren’t helping much…are you?
Could it be that you just need a label, any label, so you you’ll have a target to throw things at? And you have chosen “MRA”?
The feminists are amused. Trust me, they are. They like what you are doing.
This is the part where I quote your own words back to you.
You said: “Seriously — you are not talking about real people. You are talking about a shoddily constructed stereotype.”
Two examples is sufficient to prove you wrong.
The rest of your logical errors:
Straw man – I never said “majority”.
Shifting goalposts – redefining MRA to be the big tent pro-male movement, instead of the accepted meaning of the acronym
Reading comprehension failure – inability to comprehend that I was not criticizing the broader movement.
Given your dishonesty and stupidity, you don’t merit further replies.
Pffft! You sound exactly like a bazillion feminists I have engaged with. Same bag of tricks. You are uptight and unimaginative.You have a fiercely guarded narrative, and you are tetchy about it.
You might have titled your article “A Non-Majority of MRAs are Spineless Pussies”, (if that is your actual opinion), but oh well, I reckon that makes a clunky sound bite.
Also, the term “spineless pussies”: Do you realize how adolescent that sounds?
But anyways. Nobody has “redefined” anything. Not. A. Thing. There is no exclusively “accepted” meaning of the term MRA. According to whom? Accepted by whom?
And for that matter, theoretically, why NOT redefine it?
Eh…? Why not be a rebel?
MRA has never been anything but ad hoc terminology. So, big tent pro-male movement works for me.
Speaking of which, are you down with my project of phasing out the term MRA altogether?
Anyhoo…. you draw your own conclusions re: my so-called “dishonesty”.
But stupid I ain’t. Trust me.
Okay, flounce away now, just the way the feminists do. Bye.
I am disappointed now. Personally I would have had directed some men toward PUA n Game, n myself was lookin forward to learning a few skills for you guys..but now learning of the type of players you are and dirty playing n of calling names for MRA’s .. I dont think I am interested in learning anything from you all or advising men for you approach.
We all have our disagreement in MRM somewhere or the else, but calling all MRA’s as s/p ?? Seriously?? Are you sure its not MGTOW that you ment? Calling all MRA’s as such is like calling every man by that name! And how different are you from feminists then??
This is sad…
Guys:
You’re arguing semantics. I know that both Koanic and Fidelbogen are cool.
The real issue is that it would be more accurate to say “Men’s Rights Activists are really older females pretending to be MRAs on blogs where men don’t bother showing up any more”.
We’re being subverted by women pretending to be what they are not.
Take a look at the argument I’ve been having on another thread where some old woman who is calling herself “Pete” and defining “himself” as an MRA:
http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/10/30/family-pictures-of-nude-baby-bath-ruinous-child-porn-prosecution/
I’m arguing with a feminist troll there.
Where are the real men?
There’s hardly any readership here at IMF or at least hardly any guys willing to defend their right to date nubile women. It makes the perfect environment for sockpuppets with agendas to hop on over and undermine all rational discussion (a sockpuppet is someone who defines themselves as something they are not).
At least the discussion was lively and rational over at the Chateau overnight where they were discussing 73 year old Berlusconi and his entourage of babes:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/five-minutes-of-alpha-2/
If “Pete” is really male, he sincerely believes that he and other older men don’t deserve younger women and are willing to ally themselves with the feminists on the laws that specifically try to stop older men from being with younger women (IMBRA, raising the age of consent, solicitation stings).
I shouldn’t have had to argue alone and then wake up to see that, over 10 hours, nobody else had spoken up about a troll in our midst denigrating the social value and power of guys over 35.
@Shawn
PUA study is necessary for an MRA to know what constitutes a right that has been trampled on by feminists and what constitutes normal female behavior.
So, for instance, if a woman divorces a husband who is still sexually attracted to her after and who has tried to be a doting, loving husband…that’s NOT necessarily feminism at work. It really could be that she left him precisely because he was like that as women have always wanted to leave such men (he could have come across like he couldn’t replace her with other women). Game teaches men how to avoid this happening.
PUA studies + international travel can help MRAs see more clearly what the western feminists have really wrought and what is natural female evolutionary biology.
The combination will make men more effective as a political force that should be able to retake control of the world and possibly in as little as a generation.
Imagine if Herman Cain, who is now battling feminists, were to grasp the black male vote which has been in the feminist camp for thirty something years.
The first line: “Not all of them.”
Given your inability to read, I highly recommend staying away from PUA.
@Fidelbogen
IMBRA was important for feminists because they were desperate to stop themselves from being devalued by much younger foreign women. The mainstream well-read PUA knows about IMBRA and what this purpose was.
Since I know IMBRA is an important issue for you, you can be glad that PUAs are mostly on board about that. They are also well read about the evo psychology of the older feminists regarding why the old bats’ #1 issue is to stop older men from dating younger women.
PUAs will also tell men not to actually spend money on con artist marriage agencies that, because of IMBRA, now charge betas $30 per letter and never allow two people to actually meet each other. ;)
Remember as well that the anti-IMBRA forums never launched a court challenge.
@Jerry:
IMBRA is an important issue, true.
But it is just one tiny point in a MUCH bigger picture.
Personally, I don’t think about IMBRA much, but then, maybe that’s just me.
But I am serious about ripping feminism a new one.
You might say that I have a one-track mind on that subject.
And I invite symbiotic coalition with any and all spiritual adults who are like-minded.
One stipulation, however. Pussy-centric adolescent assclowns who only care about power and dominance hierarchies among men, had better stay away.
Such people are not friends. Not brothers. Not allies.
They do not understand symbiosis.
And they make the feminists laugh all the way to the bank.
@Fidelbogen
I know what you’re talking about, which is the macho one-up-man’s ship aspect of the PUA sphere sometimes. It used to be a lot worse w hen the average age was 25.
But the opposite is often the case around here, where some males compete to see who’s had the least success with women.
I’d rather an atmosphere where one is constantly reminded to stand away from the computer and go make a new friend and get her to fall in love.
Feminists are not laughing now that the Chateau is more openly reminding women that they have a small window when their physical appearance is hot and you can be sure that they wouldn’t appreciate the new post over there praising Berlusconi for dating 17 and 18 year olds in his seventies.
Hard core feminist sleeper trolls exposed themselves last year in an all out attempt to stop me and others from making it look OK for men to go to strip clubs now and then for relaxation and fun. They yelled “But that doesn’t make you alpha” a thousand times before Roissy shut them down with a post that said “It doesn’t necessarily make one not alpha either”.
Before a few years ago, yes, feminists were laughing about and in control of the PUA sphere. Yes, feminists were defining “alpha” back then.
“If “Pete” is really male, he sincerely believes that he and other older men don’t deserve younger women and are willing to ally themselves with the feminists on the laws that specifically try to stop older men from being with younger women (IMBRA, raising the age of consent, solicitation stings).”
You’re a flipping fool. The age of consent laws in our country are fine just where they are. If they are raised it will be no more than 18 years of age. That’s still teen years so if you are able to secure the genuine affections of an 18 year old without having to clean out your bank account – high fives and more power to you!
Now stop being an obtuse idiot.
“But the opposite is often the case around here, where some males compete to see who’s had the least success with women.”
That would be like all of them . It’s a dead heat haha
“One stipulation, however. Pussy-centric adolescent assclowns who only care about power and dominance hierarchies among men, had better stay away.”
That’s only because YOU want to be the King Assclown lol
Emotional dissociation and initiation has nothing to do with manhood. I do not understand where in the article has brought up this whole PUA vs. MRA debate. If I did not learn some of the better principles of PUA first before becoming an MRA, I would not have been successful with woman. Both PUA and MRA camps need to stop throwing each other under the bus. We all can learn from each other and need each other’s help; otherwise no men will have their needs met, whether it is honor, dignity, respect or…sex.
Leaving the country is not as easy as the author describes. I have begun to research this option and most of the first world, English-speaking countries an MRA or us ‘spineless pussines’ would flee to have an agreement with good ‘ol US of A to garnish child support (Canada, Australia, Britain, etc.) So unless
you are
1) wealthy AND
2) are good at learning a second language FAST
OR
3) all of the above and have family in a non-agreement country who can
help you find a job, housing, etc.
than you have no choice but to stay and fight.
just my two cents.
Where are MRAs in this father’s case? Even feminists are supporting him, but not MRAs? WTF?
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2010/10/11/where-are-the-mens-and-fathers-rights-groups-in-flores-villar-vs-us/
@Lurker-English happens to be the unofficial world language and every young female of the class you would be dealing with speaks it.You can even work as a private English tutor if you needed money if you’re an educated person and are capable to teaching correct English and grammar. And don’t worry about speaking the local language because you’ll actually earn more if you don’t. If a well off parent in say, Taiwan, hires you as a tutor for their 16yo daughter they figure that she’ll learn faster and better if you only speak English. Of course, you can also shag the girl too and she’s usually a virgin :o)
@Pete- only the lawyer involved in a case signs a brief so that blog is run by an idiot. And btw, only lawyers can argue cases before the US Supreme Court and they also must be admitted to practise there so asking why men are not signing a brief makes no sense at all.
I’m always amazed at how little people know about anything.
Flores-Villar v. United States
The father was not married to the mother and it doesn’t state whether he was a natural born or naturalised US citizen. Since most people don’t understand this I’ll explain. A Natural born US citizen is one whose parent(s) were natural born US citizens. It’s irrelevant when he was born because natural born simply means that you were a citizen at birth.
Flores wanted to pass his US citizenship onto his son born in Mexico but apparently he had to live in the US for a number of years after he attained the age of 16 to be able to do this which leads me to believe that he himself was a naturalised citizen aside from the fact that he wasn’t married to the mother. This is not a typical case here.
“If a well off parent in say, Taiwan, hires you as a tutor for their 16yo daughter they figure that she’ll learn faster and better if you only speak English. Of course, you can also shag the girl too and she’s usually a virgin :o)”
To Taiwanese leave their teen daughters alone with foreign men? Is Taiwanese parenting culture just as deprived and degraded as our’s?
1)Emotional dissociation.
2)Initiation.
Those are the traits of 1) sociopaths 2) sign of aggression which could fit into a lot of undesirable types of behavior .
I think how any one defines being a man is the only shit test I need to use from now on.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
And it’s not how I define ideal manhood, it’s the culturally universal characteristics.
If you’d read Mark’s article, you’d understand that such traits exist on a continuum. Binary thinking is so simplistic.
To Taiwanese leave their teen daughters alone with foreign men? Is Taiwanese parenting culture just as deprived and degraded as our’s?
The man is their English tutor. A girl I knew there had an English tutor who was about 30, she had just turned 16 when he shagged her. She told me he also taught her how to give bj’s. She loved him but he broke up with her. Well, I guess if her father knew he wouldn’t like it but anyway she speaks perfect English :o)
@Little Alex
“Pete” is a female troll whose main agenda here is to decry age difference relationships and support raising the age of consent from 16 to 18 everywhere. If “he” is male, it’s the usual case of an unhappiily married man trying to rationalize why he’s sticking with a fat aging wife, using personal defeatism to say that his pedestalized vision of youthful “eye candy” would never want to have sex with a slob like him and other males over 30 who are, by definition of their being over 30, are also “disgusting” (his characterization of a man who would want to follow through on his desires when he looks at eye candy).
The last adult man whom I’d allow to babysit a child would be the one who obsesses about how immoral and degraded sex with a 16 year old would be.
Note “Pete” is a married man who defends his desire to look at “eye candy” while protesting too much here about men having sex with younger women.
It’s getting too obvious and more readers need to tell Pete to stuff it with “his” agenda.
Ferdinand has to understand that it doesn’t help this blog to allow such mentally ill opposition to one of the most basic of men’s rights (dating younger women) come from a troll pretending to be a male MRA of some sort.
Heartiste would be having “Pete” for lunch if “he” wrote the same thing over at the Berlusconi post: http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/five-minutes-of-alpha-2/
“Pete” wouldn’t have the guts to go over there and tell a bunch of PUAs that they or the local society would be “depraved and degraded” if they tapped someone who is over the age of consent in 95% of the world.
Let’s the moderators and the original posters of articles here start to deal with trolls so the honest readers don’t have to jump in the mud and fight reactionaries themselves.
A big reason why MRA’s do tend to be spineless pussies is precisely because they let trolls like “Pete” infiltrate their ranks, which neutralizes them.
Without a PUA mentality of wanting to get laid with the hottest young women, a sad defeatist MRA over 35 years old can be easily swayed into not caring about the rights of those men their own age + all men younger than 35 who “still” believe that they should be trying to get laid with the best looking young eye candy.
“Pete” is here strongly opposing that and presumably hundreds of “MRA readers” have passively let her have her say. We obviously don’t have many male readers here under 25 because they wouldn’t be so quick to accept a “fellow MRA” pushing the agenda that they should go to jail for sleeping with a 17 year old hottie.
The quickest way to lose your rights is to keep falling for the line “the young ones won’t want you anyway”.
That makes too many MRA’s spineless pussies and defeatists.
A reminder to Bible Thumpers:
1) The Bible says nothing about 16 year olds being too young to mate.
2) Patriarchal reactionaries should want a culture where the most respected of the patriarchs can replace a wife who died of cancer with the most fertile and best looking female in the community. I did this when my fiance died that way.
3) When the patriarchy was strongest the age of consent was lowest. It’s risen in the past 20 years, for the first time in 6000 years of recorded history, entirely because of the rise of menopausal female political power. And it’s the US that’s exporting the poisonous hatred toward that which men desire most (sex with the hottest young women).
4) It’s the female (feminist) vision of “social conservatism” when fake American evangelist “males” obsess too much about stopping other men from dating females in their late teens (the most fertile females).
Bible Thumpers need to at least go back to a way of thinking that was not controlled by the menopausal females of their minority population who want to block access to the most fertile females.
We know the modern American church is feminist-controlled.
You yanks should be more like the sophisticated French. The age of consent is 15, and you can purchase any alcohol at 16 although in a bar you can only drink beer, wine until you’re 18.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDHe5pT0vHI&feature=related
Watch it from the 4 minute mark. That’s the art teacher and one of his students. This film was made in ’69 at a time when there was still censorship but yet something like this would be more censored today than back then.
Don’t be so hard on Bill Price. It is a beautiful calling to be a father. I wanted to build a family in my youth, but the Universe ordained that was not meant to be. If you were a father you would not want leave your children.
You are a male feminist. that is why you have such hatred for men that refuse to dumb themselves down and kiss womens asses like you do. You just want all men to be just as pathetic as you are. Well guest what, some men want to be great fathers and great husbands with the right women. Just because his wife wants a divorce afteer 20 years doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be allowed to see his children and loose all of his assets. Are you saying men should have a void in their heart regarding children because daddy wasn’t there for you? I thought only shitty women had daddy issues. Look if you want to be a asshole all your life who simply chases one slut after another fine do that and be happy. But dont put down someone that is standing up for themselves and ironically you as well. Should you ever in up in court on a false rape allegation you will be damn thankful that mra’s are around to come to your defense.
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