Note: I was going to publish this post this morning, but my Internet connection blew out last night before I could finish it.
I wasn’t planning to return to the Islam thing anytime soon, but because I published a guest post on the subject yesterday, I’ve decided to revisit the issue. This post is comprised of replies to commenters on my Draw Muhammad Day post and Cecilia’s post “You Talk Like a Girl“, where I am apparently a hot topic of discussion. Rather then throw up a bunch of scattershot replies all over the place (especially considering Cecilia’s blog uses nested comments, which makes exceptionally long discussions hard to follow), I’ve responding in one big post.
To summarize, Null thinks I’m naive for accepting the textbook definition of neoconservatism, accuses me of being a hypocrite for not “tak[ing] a stand against policies of [my] own supposedly democratic government supported with [my] own tax dollars”, and “would like to see evidence of this strong correlation between being Muslim-majority and state failure that [I] point to.” She also tries to claim that the Muslim gangs that plague countries like France and Sweden aren’t really Muslim. Both Null and Cecilia think that I hate Muslims, and Cecilia in particular takes issue with my description of Muslim fanatics as cunts. Höllenhund thinks I’m spreading “neoconservative agitprop.” Whiskey and Matt Parrott don’t like my description of the Iraq and Afghanistan adventures as “pointless”, and Matt also thinks I’m trying to avoid “dealing with the POINT” (which presumably begins with “t” and ends with “he Jews”). Here’s what I’ve got to say on these matters:
1) Null is wrong about the gestalt of the neocons. Every definition of neoconservatism makes specific mention of how it revolves around how it “supports using American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.” Prominent neocon thinkers such as Charles Krauthammer and Victor Davis Hanson specifically argued that the Bush administration should invade Arab countries to transform their governments, and even non-neocons acknowledge that their championing of democratic reform in the form of post-war nation building is one of their chief concerns.
If Null wants to argue about the motivations of the people in charge of the government, that’s one thing, but no one can seriously argue that spreading Western values and systems of governance to non-Western nations is not a fundamental plank of neoconservative ideology. You could go the War Nerd route and accuse them of being clandestine traitors, but that violates the old maxim of never attributing to malice what is easily explained by stupidity. Yes, what the neocons advocate is basically rapacious imperialism, but not since the Mongols drowned half of Eurasia in a tsunami of blood have conquerors been able to talk openly about their desire to rape and pillage. You have to claim to be killing for a higher cause, be it God, the fatherland, or the liberation of the proletariat if you want to get anywhere. Neoconservatism is basically a version of the White Man’s Burden for the new century, mixed with Trotskyism and served with a side of tikkun olam.
2) Draw Muhammad Day was BOTH “a free speech issue” and a “retribution issue.” If Muslims didn’t take to the streets worldwide, burning cars and screaming bloody murder the last time someone dared to draw a picture of Muhammad, the holiday would never have occurred. If liberal governments and media conglomerates didn’t bend over backwards for Muslims out of fear that a bunch of maniacs would put fatwas on their heads, the holiday would never have occurred. By reacting in such a ridiculous fashion, Muslims basically brought this on themselves.
3) I don’t “expect good, ‘moderate’ Muslims to participate in “Draw Muhammed Day—. Nor do I give a damn about “curbs on free speech on the part of governments that are actively supported by the US”. Since not all tribes operate by the same rules, it’s not nearly as big a deal when rights that are taken for granted in Western countries aren’t implemented outside the West. Not all peoples are equal. Get over it.
4) I never claimed that Muslims have a monopoly on failed states, or that religion is the sole factor that determines state success, but that Muslim-majority states are disproportionately failed ones. There is not a single Muslim-majority nation with a standard of living equivalent to that of any Western nation. The richest Muslim states, oil exporters like Saudi Arabia and the UAE, would be quiet, undeveloped backwaters if it wasn’t for the civilized world’s petroleum addiction. The most successful Muslim-majority states such as Turkey are only on the developmental level of Brazil. Blaming whitey will only get you so far, considering that:
a) Many Muslim-majority states, such as Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan were either never colonized by Western powers or were only colonized for extremely short periods of time.
b) Using states as “pawns in foreign wars” and installing “sock puppet despots relying on Western aid to stay in power” are only possible if the underlying state was weak to begin with.
5) Trying to claim that the roving minority gangs in France or Sweden aren’t truly Muslims is a lame copout, akin to leftists claiming that the Soviet Union wasn’t “truly” communist. Also see: no true Scotsman fallacy. Religion forms an integral part of many ethnic identities - Catholicism is intertwined with Italian identity, Anglicanism with the English, and Orthodox Christianity with the Russians. Islam is likewise an integral part of many tribal identities, namely the identities of many of the minorities who are causing problems in the West. If we only count devout practitioners of religions as true members of that faith, the membership of every non-cult religion worldwide would tumble to a negligible number. The thugs roaming Malmo may not go to mosque every Friday, but they’re still Muslims. You can’t wash your hands of them that easily.
6) a) You don’t need a “clash of civilizations” theory to know that proximity + diversity = war. Different tribes simply do not get along, and when they’re forced to mingle, violence, racism, and bigotry result. The only way to control a highly diverse population in a small space is massive government intervention in every sphere of life. This is why nations comprised of different tribes, such as Iraq and the former Yugoslavia, vacillate between dictatorial totalitarianism and sectarian anarchy. The only reason why New York City isn’t a hotbed of violence, despite its diversity (as Sparks123 recently asked) is because New York City is the closest thing America has to a fascist police state. The Crown Heights riot was the popping of the Big Apple’s whitehead of inter-tribal conflict, and New Yorkers responded by electing a mayor who cleaned up the streets by violently enforcing every non-crime in the books, from drug possession to graffiti. His successor has been jamming the government’s meaty proboscis everywhere it shouldn’t be, and he was re-elected twice, the second time after specifically suspending a law limiting mayors to two terms in office. New Yorkers aren’t stupid. They know that Big Brother is the only thing between them and all-out civil war. In short, multiculturalism is the enemy of freedom.
b) When someone relocates to a new country or region, they are expected to at least tolerate the values and customs of their new home, if not accept them outright. When you’re a guest in someone else’s house, you respect their rules or you don’t go there. For example, Americans who insist on imposing their culture and practices on others when traveling or living abroad are rightly mocked as “ugly Americans”. But if I were to refer to belligerent third-world immigrants in Western countries as “ugly Muslims” or “ugly Mexicans”, everyone would shout me down as a racist bigoted xenophobe.
c) I don’t hate Muslims. My problem is with those both in the West and without who are trying to impose their retrograde way of life on me and my brethren. I also despite the imbeciles on the left and the right who thought allowing millions of low-IQ peons from alien cultures to settle in Western countries was a good idea. I have no beef with Muslims who respect Western values (of which there are plenty), but those who don’t like how Western nations operate should go back to their shithole countries where they can wallow in their wonderful culture like pigs in mud all day long and no one will care. This is less of a problem in America, as our Muslims tend to be more educated, wealthier, and it’s easier for our degenerate liberal institutions to reprogram their children (see: Rima Fakih) then the ones in Europe, but I still would rather not live in Baghdad West. I also oppose liberals and neocons who want to impose Western ways on Muslims. We leave you alone, you leave us alone. Capisce? (Also see here for more on my views on radical Islam.)
7) Outside of Judaism, Islam is the religion that most people try to NOT crap on. Whether it’s out of fear or “cultural senstivity”, liberal Western governments and media outlets treat Muslims like a protected class. Â For them to react in such a whiny, bratty fashion in response to the tiniest cuts is fucking galling. If Christians started riots every time some jackass slighted them, every city in every country in North America, Europe, and Australasia would be on fire 24/7/365, and the streets would be stained red with the blood of heathens. Welcome to the club, you pansies.
8) The willingness to get violent doesn’t preclude cowardice. Muslim youths who run rampant in Sweden and other countries aren’t doing so because they’re brave – they’re doing so because they know the natives won’t fight back. It’s the behavior of a bully. Bullies are inherently cowardly, because the only people they pick on are those who won’t resist them or can’t. When they get into a fight with someone who can take their shots and dish out their own twice as hard, they either flee or surrender. The minute that the governments apply the slightest pressure to the Muslim thugs is the minute they’ll get on their hands and knees and start groveling for their lives.
9) Reacting to every perceived insult in an over-the-top manner is not manly. Part of being a man is understanding the concept of proportionality. When some asshole cuts me off on the highway, I get angry and slam my horn – I don’t follow the guy to his destination, pull him out of his car and beat him to death. It’s generally women and children who are incapable of recognizing when to let things go. For Muslims to react to the Muhammad cartoons with violent protests is proof positive of how unmanly they are. They’re like spoiled brats who throw temper tantrums whenever their parents don’t give them exactly what they want.
10) I don’t have a religion, per se. I’m officially a Catholic and was educated at a Catholic high school, but I don’t believe in God or go to mass. And even if I did, that would have nothing to do with the point of my post. The point is that when free speech is the law of the land, you can’t pick and choose which groups are acceptable to attack. Either nothing is off limits, or everything is. If Christianity can be ridiculed, so can Islam and any other religion for that matter.
11) It’s not my duty to correct every commenter on my site who says something stupid. If I were running a serious political outfit like Occidental Dissent or the Bay Area National Anarchists, I’d moderate comments with a heavy hand and take pains to keep morons from stinking up the comment threads. But since this blog is nothing more than an outlet for my thoughts, what the peanut gallery says is more or less irrelevant. This blog is an open forum – aside from the one rule I have, anyone can say anything and I will not censor it.
12) If someone’s got a sensible justification as to why we need to be in Iraq and Afghanistan in the year 2010, I’d like to hear it. The goal of the Afghan invasion was completed when we forced the Taliban out of power a month after attacking. Getting Osama bin Laden is utterly pointless – without the support of a government, all he can do is wander the mountains and make the occasional spooky video. And Afghanistan’s only export of value is opium, which we can’t take advantage of due to that whole “War on Drugs” thing. Afghanistan should have been like the Gulf War – get in, smash the enemy quickly, and get out. As for Iraq, we invaded them to get weapons of mass destruction that didn’t exist. Watching people still try to defend the U.S. government’s biggest fuckup since Vietnam is hilarious, I tell ya. And even if there was a point to that invasion, why are we still there?
13) The biggest pro-Muslim anti-Semite out there is Richard Hoste. See here and here. Half of Steve Sailer’s commentariat also seems like they’d welcome the Caliphate if it would wash away all that Jew-created debauchery and decadence. You could also toss in every paleocon from Pat Buchanan to Taki Theodoracopulos to Paul Craig Roberts who claim to be anti-imperialist and anti-interventionist, but love to either gush like schoolgirls over the Palestinians or co-opt the language and theories of leftists to condemn Israel. They’re not really a big problem – which is why I only devoted part of one paragraph of the post to them – but they still annoy me for reasons I’ve already mentioned.
14) As for the one taboo I haven’t “torn through”, all I can say is check in tomorrow or Thursday.


{ 19 comments… read them below or add one }
Good response. I was getting mentally constipated from dealing with your peanut gallery, and nearly tearing my hair out in frustration.
I think you meant: “4) I never claimed that Muslims have a monopoly”
In short, multiculturalism is the enemy of freedom.
That is absolutely correct, which is why every should convert to Christianity immediately. :-)
I’m not actually for forbidding the ridicule of my religion, as I’m not for co-opting the violence of the state to enforce my personal views. But I sometimes wish the Christian guys would wake up and grow a backbone. They’re too busy trying to “be nice” to stand up for what they believe in. And that is decidedly unmanly and wimpy.
That religion is still stuck in the 7th century AD. By those standards, it is average.
However the rest of the world has changed and evolved in the last 1,300 years. The followers of that religion however refuse to change because nobody or nothing had pushed them hard enough, yet.
I just had a further thought:
I hear many cries for freedom and liberty, but I wonder if most of the guys who are so eager for it, would be pleased to truly have it. With rights come responsibilities, that is natural law. A government can hide that fact for a while, but (as we’ve seen with feminism) the system breaks down eventually.
Or are they merely looking for anarchy, rather than patriarchy?
I actually supported the Iraq War all along, and still do.
The same outcome could have been done for *much* less cost, of course. I think the main reason people are pissed is not ‘no WMDs’, but the cost.
But replacing Saddam with the government they have now, however imperfect, is a net positive for America and the region :
a) Massive new oilfields that reduce the power of rogue OPEC states.
b) No chance of Saddam resuming his nuclear program (which Israel bombed in 1981, or his Chem/bio weapons (which he used in the 80s and 90s against Iranians, Kurds, and Marsh Arabs). I don’t like the ‘No WMDs’ point, because he was certainly acting like he had them – what happens to someone who keeps pointing an unloaded gun at people, and this person had a record of actually shooting people in the past?
c) MANY big-name terrorists went to Iraq, and got killed by US forces. The flypaper theory. In fact, there has been a distinct drop in the size and success of WW Islamic terrorist attacks after the 2008 surge. This is not a coincidence. Neither is the fact that both Palestinian suicide bombings and the Kashmir conflict quieted down after the invasion of Iraq - the same terrorists all went to Iraq, to fight, and got themselves killed.
d) A government far better than Saddam does tug away at other non-democratic regimes in the region. The uprising in Iran last year involved sending photos via the Internet to Iraq, from which people sent those videos/photos to the world. Iraq’s existence helps Iranian dissidents bring the light of day onto what happens in Iran.
e) Expose the UN for being the obsolete fraud that it is. Ending the ‘Oil for Food’ scam, which caused 500,000 children to starve, was the single biggest humanitarian victory of the last decade (no credit will be given, of course).
And even if there was a point to that invasion, why are we still there?
I agree that we should withdraw from occupied countries on a first-in, first out basis. We are still in Germany and Japan, and should get out of there. Then, we can get out of South Korea. Then, out of Kosovo (where we still have a few people). And then, finally, out of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Now, if we can just get feminists and Muslims to war against each other, that would be the best thing. That is what I keep hoping would happen, even if only anecdotally. We need people who are better at mixing oil and water.
If someone’s got a sensible justification as to why we need to be in Iraq and Afghanistan in the year 2010, I’d like to hear it.
About two-thirds of the troops have already been withdrawn from Iraq.
The process takes a few years, as training the Iraqi forces is a multi-year process.
Regarding Afghanistan – I don’t have an answer. The Taliban should have been history within 90 days after 9/11/01. All I know is that our inability to execute a ‘surge’ in Afghanistan like we did in Iraq is due to this being a NATO operation, rather than a US operation (i.e. one that would be more competent, because we don’t need ‘consensus’ from all NATO members).
Now, if we are actually going to do something to Iran, then having troops on both sides of Iran makes sense. But if we aren’t going to do something to Iran, then there is no point standing around.
Thanks for the response Ferd (and the hits that will come with it). I would say though that it’s pretty excessive to say that enforcing petty crime is somehow “Big Brother” and “police state.” The NYPD still has to operate within the confines of the Constitution and they aren’t just harassing random citizens. And to extent that New York is Big Brother (searching bags in the subway, use of cameras, etc.), it’s because of the threat of terrorism, not black or Hispanic crime.
Otherwise, very good points about radical Islam and how the right and the left haven’t properly dealt with it. I would add the Right’s religious nature means that it can’t tackle the fundamental flaws of Islam without tackling its own flaws. Therefore, they are reduced to bromides about Islam being a “religion of peace.”
Want to know why we are still in Iraq?
Peak oil, nothing else. As TFH mentioned above, there are supposedly some of the biggest oilfields in the middle east in Iraq sitting there, undeveloped. I trust the powers that be are in it not just for profits but because they know this oil can buy us some time – and we WILL need at least a few decades of it – to transition to a non carbon fueled economy. Otherwise the world is in deep shit.
I used to believe that Iraq had WMD. I don’t anymore. I think the war was launched partly due to geopolitical oil supply realities and partly because Jr. wanted to finish what daddy started.
Afghanistan, I’m really not sure about. But I do know we haven’t made any legitimate attempts to capture OBL since he went into hiding in the hills of Pakistan, so there must be some other reason for it.
“Hear, hear!”, as we who are either Brits or white-country settler-colonist Commonwealthers (Aussie, Kiwi, or, as in my case, Canadian) say.
The simple fact no liberal, and also all too many non-liberals, unfortunately, don’t want to admit, is this: a “fundamentalist” Muslim is simply one who actually holds to the tenets of his/her faith; a “moderate” Muslim, i.e. one who doesn’t hate the West, and want to see the West’s downfall / destruction, is in fact, a heretical or apostate Muslim, one who doesn’t truly hold to the tenets of his/her faith, that the Dar-al-Islam (Domain of Submission) must conquer the Dar-al-Harb (Domain of Struggle/War) till the Dar-al-Harb is no more, and that anything that advances the cause of Islam, even dishonesty (“taqiya” = strategic lying to infidels), is justified, under the terms of Jihad (holy war). A moderate, pro-West “Muslim” is really a bad Muslim, according to the tenets of their faith; an anti-Western Muslim is simply an ordinary, practicing, faithful Muslim. If we value the West, we ought to encourage the Muslims in our midst to be heretical or apostate, not devout; also, we ought to discourage further Muslims from settling here, by making them feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, as well as changing immigration policies to keep them out. It’s that simple, really.
Clarence: “Afghanistan, I’m really not sure about. But I do know we haven’t made any legitimate attempts to capture OBL since he went into hiding in the hills of Pakistan, so there must be some other reason for it.”
My guess is that the continued US (& british etc.) military presence in Afghanistan is mostly to do with India and Pakistan.
There are large numbers of fanatics and their supporters in Pakistan and the terrorists can move quite freely from Pakistan to Afghanistan and vice versa.
So if Pakistan fell to the fundies that might lead to war between Pakistan and India both of which have nuclear weapons.
And there’s also the issue of control over Central Asian natural resources.
Excellent post, FB!
Clarence, the problem with the oil theory is that the invasion and occupation greatly held back the production of Iraqi oil. If the goal was to get Iraqi oil out of the ground, the cheapest and easiest way to do it would have been to cut a deal with Saddam. Yeah, he was a shithead and the oil money would have helped him get up to no good, but how is that different from Iran and Libya, whose oil money allow shithead Khaddafi and Ahmedinejad to get up to no good?
And that leaves aside the issue of hey, what if we spent the gazillion dollars we spent on Iraq in the past 7 years on making this country energy independent? You could buy a shitload of nuclear power plants, solar farms, and wind farms for what we spent on Iraq.
Thank you for this great post. [For the record, I oppose the Iraq War (not Afghanistan for its original intent but maybe we can start pulling back there as well).]
I’m glad that some commentators within this sphere of discourse don’t think Muslims are awesome b/c they oppose Western idiocy. These Muslim apologists are sickening really.
love to either gush like schoolgirls over the Palestinians or co-opt the language and theories of leftists to condemn Israel.
I have no problem with leftists using the human rights grousing to condemn Israel (though I disagree when a dangerous population wishes to destroy you) or conservatives criticizing Israeli-US relations based on how it affects us. Those are legitimate concerns and ones I’ve espoused in my personal life discussions on the subject.
But when Pat Buchanan starts complaining about apartheid states and the oppressed, it’s absurd:
http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2010/05/pat-buchanan-on-elena-kagan-and-jews.html
Ooo Nice rant. I agreed with everything you said. Yeah Im a “officially” Muslim but I dont know if I believe in God and Im definitely not down with radical Islam. I think the US should be open to everyone (granted they follow immigrant protocol and come over here LEGALLY). However immigrants must make it a point to try to assimilate into US society enough so they can get along well in their new houses. I understand and sympathize with people wanting to retain some of there culture(so long as its within the bounds of the law) but all this coming got the US and refusing to speak English and the sort is absurd.
Im with Sparks on the New York police state. That has to do more with terrorism concerns than fear of all out race rioting and ethnic clashes.
Tarl:
Oil and oil derivatives are used in literally hundreds of products from asphalt to fertilizers to even some medicines. Replacing oil is not an overnight process – heck not even with a Manhatten style project utilizing the whole country could we hope to move off our liquid fuel dependence in less than 15 to 20 years. There’s simply too much inbuilt infrastructure that can’t be converted either cost effectively or at all, and thus must be replaced wholesale. Nuclear /Fusion power might be the long term solution, but it would rely on new technologies for fertilizers, people using electric vehicles rather than ICE ones, and most importantly, even the thorium fission cycle that I support would take decades to build up to be most of our electric supply. Fusion, I love, but even if the NIH ignites this year it will be at least ten to twenty years before the technology is perfected to start building the first LIF plant. Meanwhile the ITER will take ten years to build and be in the testing stage for five or ten before the DEMO test plant is built. All in all, fusion is at least 30 to 50 years away. Given unlimited funding it might be as little as 25, but with economies collapsing all over the world how would a research program get unlimited funding?
I think you can see I’m not as sanguine as you are about the end of the cheap oil era, nor do I think solar, nuclear or any other combination of renewables will suffice to replace it in the short term. Now , we do have lots of inefficiences in our economy including how we live our lifestyles, how we insulate our homes, etc. This gives me hope that the coming slide is a gradual one (though those aircraft carriers give me hope to, US uber alles, right?) until we can get technologies up and running to continue business as usual. I’m hardly a doomster or someone who wants going local to mean going medieval and giving up personal transport. But we better hope and pray that peak oil really is overblown at this time, or things could get nasty in the next 2 to 5 years.
By the way, the UN had sanctions on Iraqi oil if you don’t remember as did also OPEC. It’s a bit more complicated politically then just imagining we could have worked out a deal with no repurcussions elsewhere, plus I think if the shi* really does hit the fan its good to have troops on the ground, planes in the sky, and ships on water nearby to protect our lifeline.
5th horseman,
Re your points (a) to (e), all that for only the bargain basement price of a trillion bucks!
Re “flypaper theory,” hey, with a trillion bucks you could offer one million million dollar bounties. Has “flypaper” netted you a million dead terrorists yet? Didn’t think so. “Flypaper” doesn’t get them in their nests either, so unless you plan on sticking around forever (or 100 years, like Insane McCain) it doesn’t look promising.
Tarl,
Why was Saddam a shithead? Wasn’t he merely doing for free what is now bankrupting America?
Agreed on Taki and Pat Buchanon. They are useless. Decadence and debauchery are a net result of female-centric culture in the West, itself the result of enhanced wealth, mobility, anonymity, the pill, the condom, and rising female wealth.
The reason for Iraq and Afghanistan boils down to oil and nukes. Iraq under US protection has the ability to put oil not in the OPEC band of $70-$80 but around $40-50. That option, to allow oil to be around half the price it is now, fully justifies the Iraq War and subsequent forces in Iraq. Because the world and US economy runs on cheap oil.
Business activity depends on efficiency of operations. Cheap oil lowers hurdle rates on almost all investments. You can correlate the real, inflation adjusted price of oil very well with economic booms. When oil is cheap, people have more money to pay for other things, like savings or consumer spending or what have you. Rather than filling up their gas tanks.
Afghanistan boils down to nukes. Pakistan’s and Iran’s. This is also (for Iraq) a play on Iran’s nukes as well. By being in Afghanistan, and zapping jihadis closely associated with Pakistan’s ISI, which btw can be done in no other way, we make a constant and up close personal reminder of US forces and possibilities to Pakistan’s military and intelligence elites. Who have a nasty habit of turning out jihadis aimed at the West. Disaster is if they turn them out on NYC with a deniable nuke. “Oh it was stolen!”
Zapping their jihadi pals they pay off all the time, reminds them that they too can have a very bad, Hellfire missile day, from a UAV launched in Afghanistan, at very short (minutes) notice. As opposed to hours-based cruise missile strikes from subs and ships in the Gulf. The US is still limited by time and distance.
By being in both Afghanistan and Iraq, the US can also reach out and touch, easily, Iranian forces should it need to. Again, a constant demonstration of zapping jihadis inside Pakistan with UAVs has the ability to focus Iranian minds. That they, too, can meet Allah very soon if the US gets angry.
Yes we are to a certain extent hostages to Pakistan’s logistical arrangements, and Iran’s ability to turn on and off jihadis from their nation into Iraq and Afghanistan. But the counter to asymmetrical terrorist forces, possibly armed with the “nuclear car bomb” is …
The utterly deniable and low-risk UAV with hellfire missiles. Which in turn needs a ground launch station close-by. That means Iraq and Afghanistan.
Countering deniable proxy with deniable proxy.
Yes it is ugly. BUT …
Dependence on cheap imported oil, globally, means it is vital to get and keep Iraq’s oil on the global market.
Nuclear proliferation means the US MUST HAVE deniable and workable proxies to legitimately threaten leaders and movers in Iran and Pakistan.
Yeah this sucks. Welcome to a world “equalized” by technology as a commodity.
[Note -- none of this depends on turning polygamous Muslims into staid, bourgeois Swiss bankers. Or "freedom" or "democracy." Merely being able to legitimately threaten guys who pose a serious risk to the US, without all-out war, which most Muslim leaders don't believe. Most Muslims think we would not seriously invade if they nuked NYC into cinders. They are probably right. Therefore we need to make a constant example out of people, to induce rational fear and deterrence.]
There was no deal to be made with Saddam on oil. He could not invite full exploitation of the oil fields because he depended on corrupt cronyism to keep power, far more than even the current corrupt clowns, and needed sky-high oil prices.
The Russian and Iranian regimes are the same, which is why they are making mischief.
As for Afghanistan, a full surge the way Iraq was done was not and is not possible because there is no seaport to roll out supplies. Everything has to go through Russian-controlled Central Asian nations or Pakistan. Severely limiting options. Osama bugged out reliably once we got close — terrain and his familiarity with it ensured his escape to nuclear armed Pakistan with whom we have limited options.
We have limits, but so too does Pakistan. Being right next door, we can launch UAVs to zap guys we don’t like. The Pakistanis can’t do much about it, and don’t talk about it much, not the least of which is it illustrates how little control their military has over their own territory.
There is another aspect of Saddam. He was frequently cited by Osama as proof positive you could defy the US, with impunity. That nothing really bad would happen. By hanging him, the US has proved that assertion wrong.
Now, if the “worst” that Jihadis could do was another 9/11, that might or might not be an argument you’d want to make. I.E. you could argue that “of course” the US should “submit” to having 3K killed, perhaps per year, by jihadis rather than the blood and treasure of the Iraq War. This is Pat Buchanon’s argument, and also the HArd Left’s argument. Kos makes it, so does Matt Yglesias, and Ralph Nader.
BUT … the downside is not “merely” 3K. It is perhaps millions if Pakistani or Iranian forces inside each nation (recall, each is deeply factionalized and lacks the unified command of the old Soviet Union) give a nuke that is “deniable” to proxy forces like Hezbollah or AQ or such.
We proved that not even Saddam, the big boy in the neighborhood, was immune. He got hanged. Believe me even now that has helped deter things. Its not permanent. Its not a “one and done.” But its a vast improvement over submissively responding to provocations like the Iran Embassy take over in 1979, or Khobar Towers, or the Cole, or Beirut Barracks, for over 30 years.
BTW, Iraq did not cost ‘a trillon bucks’. Numbers that big are rounded up from $550 Billion, and even that number includes the salaries of soldiers who would be paid during peacetime anyway.
Look at this Cato chart of Federal spending (defense and non-defense). The Iraq War years are not when things really spiked up, even for defense..
The amount the government spends, directly and indirectly, on maintaining feminist illusions, transferring wealth from men to women, and shielding woman from the consequences of their own actions, dwarfs the cost of the Iraq War.
If wasting a trillion bucks is troublesome to you, then you should be fighting feminism in all its forms.
“In short, multiculturalism is the enemy of freedom.”
yep. And this is why I vote differently from what I require for myself. The US can’t handle freedom by definition. I will most likely end up in Europe in the next few years, but I have to wait and see who climbs out of the world economic hole the best. I know it’s a small point in your voluminous post…thanks for all of the info., it was a very educational read.
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