That’s the message of this Daily Princetonian article sent by alert reader Steve Tirone. And it’s written by a woman, no less:
Among the situations presented in [Sex on a Saturday Night], we witnessed something most people might consider a very clear case of rape: the shy guy who gets drunk and has sex with his unconscious, also drunk, girlfriend. To the public, he is, of course, the one solely to blame, since he took advantage of the girl’s unresponsive state.
Similarly, my friend blamed her partner and wanted him arrested. She was conscious during the act, but the alcohol concentration in her blood was so high that she could not have been responsible for her decisions.
Did she have the right to accuse the boy of rape? Before you say yes, think about this for a minute: Should the fact that she willingly got herself into an advanced state of inebriation prevent her from complaining about anything that happened to her while she was in that state?
She knew what would happen if she started drinking. We all know that the more people drink, the less likely they are to make wise decisions. It is common sense.
Therefore, the girl willingly got herself into a state in which she could not act rationally. This, in my opinion, is equivalent to agreeing to anything that might happen to her while in this state. In the case of our girl, this happened to be sex with a stranger.
Go read the whole thing. I think it’s fantastic that young women are relearning common sense. How could this smart girl have resisted the Ivy League feminist victimologist indoctrination so well? Oh, wait:
Iulia Neagu is a freshman from Bucharest, Romania.
Even still, I am impressed. I wonder if she’s hot?
Don’t forget to read the comments too. The usual group of “DON’T BLAME THE VICTIM YOU EVIL MISOGYNIST YOU” fembots are screeching away, but there’s a small group of supporters who are actually bringing facts to the table:
Go froshie, bringing up some of the points that I’ve been losing sleep over since freshman year. It still scares me shitless that every time I take a girl home, all she has to do is cry rape and my life will be completely and irreversibly destroyed. Basically, the whole victim mentality really gets on my nerves – when you get drunk, you understand that you won’t be thinking clearly, just as you know if you park your car in Camden it might very well get stolen.
A horror story from a friend of mine: he was at a dance in high school when a girl who had a few drinks started dancing with him aggressively. Hands went places, but he was weirded out and didn’t take it any further. Next day, girl was ashamed and cried sexual assault, even though intercourse never even took place, and the only thing that saved my friend from expulsion and living with a sex offender label for the rest of his life was a ridiculously lucky break on his part.
There is the small fact that the one-in-four [rape] statistic quoted in SoaSN is completely false.
Here’s a nice article summarizing the debate:http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/leo053101…
Here’s a link (warning: PDF) to the DoJ report he mentions – the main portion is on page 18, companion study on pages 20-21:http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf#s….
The bottom line? One study came up with 1.7%; the other with 0.16%. Not even close to 25%
Keep in mind also that nearly 50% of rape claims turn out to be false (http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html), and that saying that one was raped over a form/telephone survey is much less of a credibility strain than filing a report. Thus, we could expect some inflation of numbers, even in the DoJ report. Naturally, one must also deal with unreported cases, but the stats for that are much fuzzier.
Greatly agree with this article. I think this exact thing happened about 4 years ago after a night at TI and the club had to go off tap for a while. It is one thing if a roofy is involved or the guy tries to get the girl drunk but if she is just drunk and consents …she consents.
All of these negative comments are obviously posted by feminist (not equalist) women.
Good unbiased article.
No, a drunk man is not agreeing to murder. No, a drunk woman is not agreeing to rape. However, yes, a drunk woman is probably agreeing to sex with whoever she is with, because we all know that getting drunk makes us more likely to engage in sex, even if we don’t remember.
This issue is one of many areas of discrimination against men by women.
Hahahahaha.
{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }
I came across this article a couple of days ago. I also found the DoJ report, which is a 320+ page monstrosity that I’ve been trying to make hay with.
The DoJ, in their report, tries to define rape assuming that women are subjective when determining their rape status. In other words, the DoJ found that about 50% of claims they considered rape and attempted rape weren’t considered so by the victims.
This is how they arrive at the 20-25% rape claim. They take 2.8%, which is the % of women who claim to have been raped or had an attempt against them in a 9 month school period. They extrapolate that ~3% up to 5% when annualized i.e. 3% @ 9 months = 5% @ 12 months. Then they multiply that 5% figure by 4 or 5 for the number of years a chick is in college. Thus, 20-25%.
This seems specious to me. First, we don’t know exactly the true nature of the incidents, we don’t know the prevalence of the chick lying, and the DoJ makes fancy statistical assumptions to come up with their figure.
Personally, unless they just absolutely do not talk about it, nowhere near 20% of the college aged women I know have been raped. This just doesn’t match up with real life.
“This, in my opinion, is equivalent to agreeing to anything that might happen to her while in this state.”
So, if she passes out and wakes up to find that she’s been part of a twenty man train, she agreed? Or if someone kidnaps her, she agreed? Tattooed a tasteless bit of ink on her rump, total agreement?
“getting drunk makes us more likely to engage in sex, even if we don’t remember.”
Getting drunk also makes us more likely to do any number of incredibly stupid, dangerous things. I go clubbing often enough to see this. Getting drunk, for instance, seems to make men more aggressive and prone to fighting. So is being drunk and getting into a fight with someone, and let’s say hospitalizing them… is that okay? Did that person agree with that? I mean, he was drunk. He knew his likelihood of fighting was increased. So it was like he was consenting, really. No charges, no medical bills, no lawsuits.
I like this already.
“Next day, girl was ashamed and cried sexual assault…”
I’ll take Things That Wouldn’t Happen if Women Weren’t Taught to be Ashamed of Their Sexuality for 500, Alex.
“Thus, we could expect some inflation of numbers, even in the DoJ report.”
I do believe it might be the DoJ report that is the one that will not classify the following as rape:
1. Man as victim
2. Anal penetration
3. Oral penetration
4. Underage victim (falls under another heading)
5. Blood-related victim (falls, again, under another heading)
6. Penetration by foreign object (including fingers)
Also, top points for putting up the quotes with Anada as a reference for studies. They wouldn’t be biased in the least.
Look, I’m not a feminist. I’m not a woman-power sort of person, nor do I believe in acting for mass social change. I’m more for personal responsibility and sexual awareness and the mess in the posting above lacks both.
Yes, when you drink, your judgment is impaired. We all know this. But being drunk, or being unconscious due to alcohol or other substances does not give the people around you legal leave to do whatever they would like to your body or your possessions. Yes, false rape accusations happen. I’m not going to make excuses for other people, but neither am I going to condemn a whole gender or set of laws because some people are unable to take responsibility for their own actions.
[How the hell did this end up in the spam folder? - ed.]
Of course it doesn’t. But it makes for a good sound byte for feminists to keep waving the bloody shirt.
On the OP, well all I have to say is that some of our memes are spreading now — spreading and spreading indeed.
Oh, and Eastern European women for the win.
A great deal of moral responsibility is on women in many cases of rape. Why would any women surround herself with drunk, horny young men (that she has probably been flirting with all night) and not carry defense (mace etc)? That’s just stupid. Of course the men are legally wrong for it, but the extent the woman took to protect/expose herself should sometimes be taken into account during sentencing.
Chuck,
No comment on your stats analysis, but I would say most women who have been raped refuse to talk about it. It’s not so different, i.e. less humiliating, for them just because they have a vaj. If Tyrone took your butt in jail, would you want to talk about it? I would think not.
I lost sympathy for them a long time ago..
Is a case of buyers regret worth destroying a persons life over? What does it say about the “accuser” and a society that allows it (even more pathetic).
Another one..
—
The Rise and Fall of a Female Captain Bligh
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1969602,00.html
Women are so common in the upper ranks of the U.S. military these days that it’s no longer news when they break through another barrier. Unfortunately, the latest benchmark isn’t one to brag about: being booted as captain of a billion-dollar warship for “cruelty and maltreatment” of her 400-member crew. According to the Navy inspector general’s report that triggered her removal — and the accounts of officers who served with her — Captain Holly Graf was the closest thing the U.S. Navy had to a female Captain Bligh.
Self-preservation is a lost art.
The fact that she was his girlfriend can also be taken as a reasonable assumption of consent – if they’d been having intercourse together, hadn’t had a big argument, she was on birth control (or he used a condom), etc. If those things were the case, if it wasn’t for the current atmosphere of campus feminist hysteria about often manufactured and certainly wildly exaggerated date rape, she’d be very unlikely to report this case. But as it is, there’s a lot of brainwashing going on. She was likely told by many of her friends that she had a duty to her sisters to report this “crime”.
Serving years in jail and having your reputation and future life prospects utterly destroyed for having sex with your girlfriend while she’s passed out if she’s had sex with you before, is wildly disproportionate in any even. What kind of significant harm was done to her? When you add in that he was drunk as well, though conscious, it’s absurd feminist extremism.
PlanetGrok:
The point is that the analysis is determining, through interviews of a sampling of women, whether those women have been raped or not. That determination is completely segregated from the woman’s actual opinion on the issue.
There is another issue here. How many men are commiting the rapes that *do* actually occur? I’d assume that rapists – the ones that are pathological and dangerous – are repeat offenders. That flies in the face of the feminist meme that all men are rapists. Whatever the number of women raped (I think feminists are inflating the numbers), there are much fewer male perpetrators. Let’s focus on those perps rather than throwing *all* men under the bus.
[How the hell did this end up in the spam folder? - ed.]
I’m magic. Thank you for retrieving it.
So tell me something, unless the rape is accompanied by excessive physical violence.. is it really a crime?
We don’t see stealing food as a heinous crime, as long as no one is injured or dead.
“That flies in the face of the feminist meme that all men are rapists. Whatever the number of women raped (I think feminists are inflating the numbers), there are much fewer male perpetrators. Let’s focus on those perps rather than throwing *all* men under the bus.”
Right, I have nothing to argue with here. It was just that one line, and the fact that I’ve known women who were raped.
“So tell me something, unless the rape is accompanied by excessive physical violence.. is it really a crime?”
I’m sorry, but that’s a stupid question from a smart man. C’mon. I hope you’re joking with that comment, but on some of these MRA sites it can be hard to tell.
If you were butt-raped, but effectively restrained so that you did not injure yourself, would you consider it a crime? Then there’s also the fact that some women go into a malleable shock when sexually assaulted, which probably has a good evo-psych explanation – women getting raped in the Stone Age wouldn’t survive if they resisted.
Grok,
A great deal of moral responsibility is on women in many cases of rape. Why would any women surround herself with drunk, horny young men (that she has probably been flirting with all night) and not carry defense (mace etc)?
Last statistic I read on rape perps, while a few years ago, was something along the lines of 85% of perps are known to the victim. Friends, coworkers, family, social acquaintances, etc.
That aside, does this mean you believe that men do not need to be in control of their actions, or held accountable for them? In this case, the woman is not taking an action. She’s at a party or a club, likely with her girlfriends, likely knows several of the men there. Girls rarely go out by themselves. Hell, girls rarely go to the restroom by themselves, as you’re probably aware. It always turns into a field trip that lasts twenty minutes.
So you get a girl at a frat party with a few of her girlfriends, she knows a couple of the frat members, and she feels comfortable. She expects that these young, horny, inebriated men will be able to control themselves because that is not only socially expected, it’s legally expected. So she doesn’t bring mace, she doesn’t bring a taser. Why would she? She’s with friends. She sees some of these people on a weekly, if not daily, basis.
Why would she be the one responsible if Frat Boy Jack gets a bit too loaded and rapes her? Sure, the drunken frat party porn makes it look all fun and like the girl was totally asking for it, but real life is rarely of porn quality.
“(I think feminists are inflating the numbers)”
More women do not report rape than those who do, due to various factors, such as shame and, more importantly, confusion. Confusion as to what happened, if what they experienced was rape, if it was their fault, if they brought it on themselves somehow. Then the social ramifications of reporting it, especially if it’s someone you see often. Fear of what it will mean, fear that reporting it will make it real and you just want to shove it into the past and not have everyone look at you like you’re a slut or a poor poor victim and they keep asking you how you are and whispering about you behind your back.
“Unless the rape is accompanied by excessive physical violence.. is it really a crime?”
What’s your definition of crime? I know this sounds incredibly fluffy-bunny and will probably be discounted because of it, but rape can be more psychologically harmful than physically harmful. While I would rather be raped than beaten, I’m sure the majority of women, when given the gravity of the event, would choose otherwise. You have no control, no control over your body, no control over what is happening. You’re an involuntary tool for someone else’s physical and psychological pleasure. I’m told it’s quite shattering, and very few women ever seem to fully recover from it.
Poetry of Flesh,
If you think I’m absolving rapists of their actions, you have not been reading my comments closely.
All I am saying is that you shouldn’t smell like a butcher when visiting the pound. Or something like that. lol.
There are clearly different “levels” of rape.
Guy hiding in the bushes ready to pounce on schoolgirl? Life in prison.
Drunk guy, drunk girl, making out, girl’s LMR fails and he goes in anyway? Misdemeanor. (if proveable)
Grok,
Apologies. I’m in class right now, which means I have to divide my attention in order to keep abreast of the lecture. Probably should have waited until I got home to comment.
Personally, I think if both the man and the woman are equally drunk (which, really, that’s impossible to prove, even with BAC testing because we respond differently), then it should be a no-fault incident.
Problem with levels of rape, while a good idea, is that no one is going to agree on what rape goes into what level, and then what punishment applies. It would never happen.
Good metaphor, by the way. Very cute.
I am ambivalent about “bad” things happening to women. Why should I care? What is in it for me?
I care more about cruelty to animals, because most domesticated animals seldom hurt people (and almost never without provocation).
I just have more sympathy for dogs and rats than women..
If you leave your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition for what you believe is ‘just for a moment’ but someone jumps and drives, has a crime been committed? Maybe not because you invited him in or he did not use any force to drive but merely operate the car. On the hand, if many guys here got drunk and were butt-raped by other drunks guys, would they complain or accept that they got drunk and were asking for it?
I am ambivalent about “bad†things happening to women. Why should I care? What is in it for me?
Aw, you’re all adorable and stuff, with your sexual prejudice and anger-based apathy. I could just eat you up.
Yeah, now you know exactly why I get my ass bruised so often. Too mouthy.
Totally worth it.
POF,
You would be surprised how many men think and act like that, without saying it. Really, why should I care? What is in it for me?
“If Tyrone took your butt in jail, would you want to talk about it? I would think not.”
Oops. for some reason I’ve never been thrown in jail with anyone named Tyrone. My bad. I guess I’m not qualified to speak on any of these issues.
“now you know exactly why I get my ass bruised so often”
Because you sell access to your orifices?
PG:
I think what has happened in the rape discussion writ large is that feminists set out wanting to attack men, masculinity, and patriarchy. They went overboard by playing the rape card all too often and devalued the definition of rape. they lumped innocent yet naive men who would actually do something about rape if they saw a violent rape occur with those same violent men who are going to rape no matter what.
feminists jump down people’s throats if they make a distinction between “rape” and “rape rape” because they have so much invested in this idea that every man is a potential rapist and patriarchy is to blame. men, as a defense mechanism, shut down any talk of rape and don’t even believe the statistics anymore. in the process, some of us come to despise women because a few bad feminist seeds spoiled the whole bunch. i’m to the point where i hear the 20-25% figure and i just flat out don’t believe it because i know that feminists have an agenda to push.
Just playing?
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/2/26/Ash_pikachu.jpg
Diaboli,
You would be surprised how many men think and act like that, without saying it. Really, why should I care? What is in it for me?
It’s not just men that think that way. Self-interest is not a purely masculine trait.
Mike,
“Because you sell access to your orifices?”
Yes, sweetie, that’s exactly it. But it’s more of a weekend hobby than anything.
A girl getting drunk and passing out is not an invitation to having sex. Did she make a bad decision? Sure. Did she put herself in a bad situation? Yes, but that doesn’t mean she’s culpable for the crime.
I will temper this somewhat for sluts who dress like whores. That does something carnal to a man, especially if the woman is willing to engage in some sexual activity.
Yes rape has been devalued by feminists, but don’t go over the edge here.
‘Poetry of Flesh’, your arguments are so horrible and full of holes that I can only assume you are a Women’s Studies major.
“So, if she passes out and wakes up to find that she’s been part of a twenty man train, she agreed? Or if someone kidnaps her, she agreed? Tattooed a tasteless bit of ink on her rump, total agreement?”
Possibly, yeah.
Some girls dig the man trains.
Stop being so Victorian. Realise that women are sexual beings and that they do sexual things. Things we may find shocking and in poor taste.
Note I said possibly, not definitely.
The very fact of ‘waking up’ to find yourself in a situation, without recollection of how you got into it, tells me that you lack the crucial information you require to determine whether or not you consented.
You don’t get to rewrite the night before based on your feeeeelings the morning after – that’s a lesson that all women need pounded into their skulls.
(Figuratively speaking.)
“Getting drunk also makes us more likely to do any number of incredibly stupid, dangerous things. I go clubbing often enough to see this. Getting drunk, for instance, seems to make men more aggressive and prone to fighting. So is being drunk and getting into a fight with someone, and let’s say hospitalizing them… is that okay? Did that person agree with that? I mean, he was drunk. He knew his likelihood of fighting was increased. So it was like he was consenting, really. No charges, no medical bills, no lawsuits.”
Then don’t get that drunk. That applies both to the girl who regrets her cheating and cries rape, and to the guy who gets drunk and fights with someone.
Both are responsible for getting themselves into that state.
Why can’t grown adults act like it, and moderate their consumption? Why must Big Daddy Government be called upon to clean up their mess after they show themselves to have the mentality of spoiled children?
As I say, it applies both to the false-raped girl and to the violent guy.
I mean, if consuming alcohol eradicates all personal responsibility, then we can’t blame guys who get drunk and rape, can we?
(Waits for the penny to drop …)
Quite clearly, responsibility does not disappear when you consume alcohol.
““Next day, girl was ashamed and cried sexual assault…â€
I’ll take Things That Wouldn’t Happen if Women Weren’t Taught to be Ashamed of Their Sexuality for 500, Alex.”
This is about the worst thing I’ve ever heard – not least because of the ‘clever’, ‘biting’ way you put it. The tiresome pop culture reference that you probably thought sounds sophisticated. It just makes you sound like an egotistical bitch.
But moving onto the message … you are a vile scumbag. That’s the only way I can put it. Even when women make false allegations that ruin men’s lives, it’s surely not THEIR fault. It’s TEH PATRIARKY for making them feel so ashamed. Uh huh.
Listen, dipshit: nobody is entitled to make a false allegation against someone else because they feel ‘ashamed’.
There’s no link there whatsoever – you’re just looking to absolve women of perjury. There is no sound argument whatsoever that, because a woman feels ashamed, she is entitled to put someone else’s life through hell.
Perhaps you think no one should ever feel ashamed? Not even for cheating on their partners?
Perhaps if people didn’t get so stupidly drunk, they wouldn’t do things they later feel ashamed of? But it’s just easier to blame some abstract network of male oppression, isn’t it? Speaking of which, I never got the memo. How do I sign up to this patriarchy?
“Look, I’m not a feminist.”
Then why do you quack like a duck?
“I’m more for personal responsibility and sexual awareness”
The fuck you are. If that were the case, why do you try to absolve women of all blame? Oh the porr porr dears, they felt so ashamed. Obviously a man who did nothing wrong must go down for this.
How does that have any connection to personal responsibility or sexual awareness?
The best way to be sexually aware is to not get stupidly drunk and get into cars with guys you don’t know. Because then, you know, you might stand a chance of being AWARE of what you did SEXUALLY.
But all of this requires women to actually look after themselves, and obviously we can’t be having that – no, they must be pampered and protected from their own bad decisions, which we call ‘patriarchy’.
“being drunk, or being unconscious due to alcohol or other substances does not give the people around you legal leave to do whatever they would like to your body or your possessions.”
Right. And being ashamed due to alcohol or other substances ingested the night before does not give you legal leave to accuse the people around you of whatever you like.
Shame is a standard experience. As is regret. Everyone feels these things. In many cases, it is one’s own fault. Part of growing up involves realising this.
Why is it that only WOMEN believe they should be protected from these normal feelings? Why is it that they insist they be treated as perpetual children, who never have to grow up and face the consequences of their actions?
“More women do not report rape than those who do, due to various factors, such as shame and, more importantly, confusion.”
This is the question I always ask when faced with this bullshit statement.
How the fuck would you know?
It’s like those statistics that report X/10 people are in the closet homosexuals.
Well, if they’re in the closet, they wouldn’t tell you or anyone else now, would they?
This is a pretty lie. A fairly tale. Because rape warriors are obsolete. They need to remain relevant so they just plain lie about it. The numbers don’t add up to their kooky ‘all men are rapists’ theories. They don’t add up to the 1 in 4 statistic. So feminists simply lie and say that there is a lot of underreporting going on.
The truth: there is NO underreporting going on.
There is A LOT OF overreporting going on.
And those are the facts.
If you find yourself ‘confused’ as to whether or not you were ‘raped’, then you weren’t raped. It’s as simple as that. You consented to sex. Nothing is ‘confusing’ about being forced into sex vs. consenting freely.
What a bullshit argument that only serves to further protect women from their own choices.
It is ALL about enabling women to report rape and fuck up some innocent guy’s life, when they regret sex.
That is it, its total sum.
“Then the social ramifications of reporting it, especially if it’s someone you see often. Fear of what it will mean, fear that reporting it will make it real and you just want to shove it into the past and not have everyone look at you like you’re a slut or a poor poor victim and they keep asking you how you are and whispering about you behind your back.”
You know what?
I’m sure most women would absolutely LOVE that kind of attention.
And the false rape statistics bear it out.
Come on, most women love being the centre of everyone’s attention, getting plenty of sympathy, etc. They love playing the victim. This is irrefutable.
“I’m told it’s quite shattering, and very few women ever seem to fully recover from it.”
If you mean rape in the traditional sense, then I can believe this.
But ‘rape’ as it is presently defined? Most women shrug it off and go about their day, after claiming from the victim’s fund and getting some guy incarcerated.
“Problem with levels of rape, while a good idea, is that no one is going to agree on what rape goes into what level, and then what punishment applies. It would never happen.”
Geez, this is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
I actually find it hard to even begin on this statement. It’s so dumb it’s practically impenetrable. It’s like a solid, impenetrable mass of dumbness condensed into two sentences.
Who are you to say that nobody else could agree on the different levels of punishment? I mean really, how fucking arrogant. Just because you can’t conceive of a solution, nobody else can? What? We seem to manage this all the time when it comes to other crimes – not every murderer gets the same sentence, for instance. One could say there are ‘levels’ of seriousness when it comes to murder, for which different punishments are given.
And just because people will disagree on what punishment should fit what level, why does it follow that a conclusion could not be reached? Why do you think legislatures exist? What do you think the purpose of a legislature is, Poetry of Flesh? Is a legislature designed to reach agreement from every person present? Does a legislature fail to come to a conclusion on an issue if not everyone agrees?
Put down the Andrea Dworkin and read something of value. People not agreeing does not mean that a standard cannot be decided upon.
So yes, it could most definitely happen.
Any view to the contrary is just plain DUMB.
People disagree and reach compromise all the time – that is what the idea of ‘democracy’ is founded upon.
And finally,
“Aw, you’re all adorable and stuff, with your sexual prejudice and anger-based apathy. I could just eat you up.”
The reason why guys like Advocatus Diablo (I think it was him) have what you term ‘sexual prejudice’ and ‘anger-based apathy’ (anger-based apathy? Does that even make sense? No, it doesn’t) is because of people like you running their mouths about TEH PATRIARKY and how women are entitled to falsely accuse men of rape because they can’t deal with their emotional issues.
It doesn’t exactly endear women to us.
Actually, seeing the damage that this kind of behaviour has wrought, I think any man can be excused his anger, or his apathy, and perhaps even some degree of prejudice, since the latter may be necessary for his survival.
@Gill
On the hand, if many guys here got drunk and were butt-raped by other drunks guys, would they complain or accept that they got drunk and were asking for it?
Depends. If they decided to go to a steamy gay bar, flirt with the guys and drank lots of alcohol, a reflective mind would come to the conclusion that the men had not taken due care, and that they were partially responsible for their predicament by putting themselves in harm’s way.
@POF
For such a worldly girl you’re quite naive. As you have rightly mentioned, nearly all rape cases involve close acquaintances. Those ‘nice” boys whom a girl feels most comfortable with are statistically the most likely to rape her: Not some complete and utter stranger. A smart bunny would conclude that that a woman should take extra care around the people that she knows.
Secondly, teenage/young adult males are not exactly known for their judiciousness, especially whilst under the influence. Men take risks, are prone to violence and violent injury with each other whilst drunk. A drunk man is not a rational animal.
So sweetie, when you combine proximity with irrationality what do you think is going to happen? Look around you next time you go out with your friends, the man that is most likely to rape you is going to be there. Would you like a drink?
And lets add some more fuel to the fire. The atmosphere of porn that men are drenched in continually reinforces the message the no really means yes. Of course women themselves do their bit, its not just the porn. Take these two choice comments from Roissy’s:
and
Mon Cherie? It seems quite a few of the girls like the rough stuff. Oh yes, I forget; No means no, except when it means yes. Drunk? It’s a confusing for a sober guy!
Part of the knowledge that comes with adulthood is that of badness of human nature in certain circumstances and grown ups are meant to take responsibility for themselves in light of this. People who deliberately expose themselves in harm’s way are deemed partially responsible for the harm that falls their way. This doesn’t just apply to rape, it applies to all aspects of life. Drunks by their natures are unpredictable in their actions. Cock teasing a bunch of horny drunken frat guys may lead to predictable “unpredictable” consequences.
There is a world of difference between the the girl minding her own business getting raped and the drunken frat cock tease who can’t remember, after shes sobered up, who who or what went into which orifice. In the first case the victim is innocent, in the second, guilty of contributory negligence. In both cases the women have been raped, in the second, she deserves some of the punishment. Conflating the two cases cheapens the crime and sanctifies the skank.
I am SO tired of women thinking that since the Sexual Revolution, sex is now roped off and controlled, bureaucratized, no longer subject to natural law or the lusts of man (and woman).
PoF -
Men – forgive me if I’m ignorantly assigning motivations to you – do not go to frat parties or bars during meat market rush to talk Plato and sample the culinary repast. They go to 1) get drunk and 2) get laid. Do women not know that? Come on, you have to know that. If you go to these venues scantily dressed, intend to flirt a lot, get all kinds of validating male attention, and go home on an ego high, you are a tease. You get something, they get nothing. Again, they don’t care what your thoughts on Plato are. Men accept the possibility of failure, but still it’s a set-up. They provide the booze and atmosphere, and hopefully you provide the ____.
If you walked into a bordello and got drunk, would you expect to wake up with your panties still on? No. Why are you getting drunk if you’re inserting yourself into an unstable situation? Would you get drunk and walk into the inner-city? I wouldn’t. It’s dangerous. Frat parties are dangerous. If you don’t crave danger, don’t go. There are lots of other fun things women can do besides go to frat parties.
But most of them don’t involve drenching themselves in male admiration, wallowing in it a bit, and going home on a power high.
You can’t have it both ways. Don’t want to be unsafe? Don’t put yourself in unsafe situations. Don’t try to get something for nothing.
Women are not entitled to absolute safety no matter the situation. They still need to exercise common sense.
Here’s one thing I’ve found: if I dress modestly and act respectfully and do not draw attention to myself, men don’t act like dogs around me.
What makes me so impatient about this failure to comprehend reality is that women ARE actually vulnerable to assault and rape. Real rape, not invited “rape.” I’m not very big and I’m not very strong, and that makes me feel vulnerable in parking lots and certain other places. So I’d just as soon not have women teasing men into a frenzied rage and looking to vent that rage on a bystander to this sexual chaos (me). I managed to make it all the way through college and a number of other situations without getting raped. I’d like to keep it that way.
Awesome post Snark!
You nailed it mate..
I don’t give a flying fuck about rape. I won’t do it but I won’t put myself into any risk situation to prevent someone else for carrying out an attack. That’s what happens with equality – you have to look after yourselves ladies. My thoughts:
- Most rapes are not particularly heinous crimes. A severe beating is much worse.
- If any woman maces me I will tear her fucking head off either right there (if she missed with the spray) or at the earliest moment I am capable. Macing a man is a violent assault and the woman deserves to suffer full violent retribution.
- If I was to intervene in a rape it would NOT be to help the woman (unless I knew her and liked her). It would be to punish the man for an anti-social crime. I don’t like criminals who think they can shit on the rule of law. I wouldn’t seek to comfort or help the woman.
- If a woman tells me she’s been raped she is immediately screened out, regardless of whether its true or false (but for different reasons)
- Like DA says, why should I give a shit? What’s in it for me?
- Men are not absolved of responsibility for fighting while drunk, why should a woman be absolved of responsibility for sexing while drunk?
- If a woman was deliberately flirting and raising the guys around her into sexual stimulation WITHOUT EVER INTENDING TO HAVE SEX then that is sexual harassment. If one rapes her, that’s her fucking problem. Learn to control yourself next time.
- People who campaign to absolve people of shame are people who have no shame and want others to join them while they roll around in the cesspool of their morally bankrupt lives.
- a false rape claimant should be jailed for perjury at the minimum, and preferably on a separate charge of vindictive assault-by-proxy
Snark,
Women’s Studies major
No, I’ve never actually taken a single course in Women’s Studies, nor considered it as a major. It’s not my thing.
Stop being so Victorian. Realise that women are sexual beings and that they do sexual things. Things we may find shocking and in poor taste.
I’m hardly one to be accused of being Victorian, and I very much believe that women are sexual beings.
You don’t get to rewrite the night before based on your feeeeelings the morning after – that’s a lesson that all women need pounded into their skulls.
Of course you don’t. I’m somewhat confused because, aside from the unneeded insults that you tossed my way, I agree with most of what you said regarding this, and my comments certainly did not say that I believe that any woman can call rape should she feel the emotional need.
Even when women make false allegations that ruin men’s lives, it’s surely not THEIR fault. It’s TEH PATRIARKY for making them feel so ashamed. Uh huh.
I suppose I should have made that comment clearer. I’m not absolving women of acting like self-centered morons, nor am I blaming “the patriarchy”. What we do, how we learn about your sexuality and our responsibility towards ourselves is our own choice. But if women were not raised en masse to feel as though whenever they did something of a sexual nature it was morally wrong, there would be significantly less false rape accusations. It doesn’t absolve them, it simply is what it is.
Perhaps you think no one should ever feel ashamed? Not even for cheating on their partners?
I’m certainly not going to dictate what people should feel.
This is the question I always ask when faced with this bullshit statement.
How the fuck would you know?
How do I know, personally? Did I perform the study? No. Can I use anecdotal evidence to support it? Yes. Did I spend all semester in an overlong class taking a course on rape in order to gain a BA in Sociology focusing on social/sexual deviance? Yes. Does that make it the end all be all of information? No. But, like most of the guys in the blogosphere, it’s just another study to support my opinion.
Who are you to say that nobody else could agree on the different levels of punishment? I mean really, how fucking arrogant. Just because you can’t conceive of a solution, nobody else can?
Oh, yes, that’s exactly it. Because I’m not intelligent enough to think of a solution, the world must be doomed to its current rape laws. Must you be so aggressive in your arguments? We’re having a discussion, not a fist fight.
The various government agencies cannot agree on what rape is when conducting their research, even on a city to city level, there is disagreement. Combine that with the feminists, with the religious right, with the anti-gay movement (usually falls into the religious right), with the MRA guys, and so on and it’s going to simply get stuck in the works, a constant battle. It would take years to get any sort of resolution, then even longer to fully implement it, and that entire time would be full of movements of opposition. Yes, it could happen, but it would take entirely too long. Abortion too long, gay marriage too long.
And I’m not sure who Andrea Dworkin is. Don’t really care to wiki it, either.
because of people like you running their mouths about TEH PATRIARKY and how women are entitled to falsely accuse men of rape because they can’t deal with their emotional issues.
Again, just to underscore what I was trying to say and apparently failing…
I don’t excuse women of false accusations of rape. It’s a horrible thing to do to someone.
But I do not lump all women and all rape accusations into the category you seem to.
I do advocate personal responsibility of one’s actions and keeping one’s wits about them. This is why, among other things, I don’t drink. At all. My body, my responsibility.
Slumlord,
A smart bunny would conclude that that a woman should take extra care around the people that she knows.
Why should she? Why should she walk around in fear of her make friends and coworkers that she’s known for years, in a constant state of distrust and paranoia that one of them might rape her? Can you imagine the psychological and social ramifications such a mindset would have?
A drunk man is not a rational animal.
So sweetie, when you combine proximity with irrationality what do you think is going to happen? Look around you next time you go out with your friends, the man that is most likely to rape you is going to be there
So he’s absolved of his actions? Under the influence is akin to an insanity plea?
Your two choice comments, one of them was me, the other, I’m not sure who that belonged to. I’ve not cheated on a boyfriend since I was 16. Anyway, using my own comment, when you’re well aware of my sexual penchants, is cheating. You have to quote more sexually average girls to make an impact, as my arguments are repeatedly accused of belonging to a sexual outlier and of no impact to the discussion.
In both cases the women have been raped, in the second, she deserves some of the punishment. Conflating the two cases cheapens the crime and sanctifies the skank.
I disagree, but to state my disagreement would just be repeating prior comments, so I will not, and will instead direct you to the above.
Grerp,
forgive me if I’m ignorantly assigning motivations to you – do not go to frat parties or bars during meat market rush to talk Plato and sample the culinary repast.
Oh, that would be wonderful. Best frat party ever.
You can’t have it both ways. Don’t want to be unsafe? Don’t put yourself in unsafe situations. Don’t try to get something for nothing.
Women are not entitled to absolute safety no matter the situation. They still need to exercise common sense
I cannot disagree with you. Risks for “gains”. But most women are naive enough to believe that the laws will protect them, probably through the idea that men don’t want to go to jail, so they won’t be touched. This isn’t always the case, obviously. But try telling that to a 19 year old high on life, sneaking out to her first frat party. Not very aware.
Here’s one thing I’ve found: if I dress modestly and act respectfully and do not draw attention to myself, men don’t act like dogs around me.
I have my own “survival” methods as well, which suit my personality and my needs. Other girls would not be happy doing as either of us would propose, and that is their choice, usually based in inexperience. They learn, hopefully not due to rape, what they have to do to survive without experiencing such things.
What makes me so impatient about this failure to comprehend reality is that women ARE actually vulnerable to assault and rape.
I know. It’s frustrating. I have a sister five years younger than me and she still does not get reality, still does not get the dangers around her. She goes to frat parties and I look at her, well knowing that when she goes she expects her friends to take care of her (even though she does not get blasted drunk), fully trusts them to not take advantage of her. She’s extremely attractive, totally naive. There’s nothing I can do or say to beat sense into her because, like most people, she’s wrapped in the idea that “it could never happen to me”.
I managed to make it all the way through college and a number of other situations without getting raped. I’d like to keep it that way.
I assume that you’ll continue to be able to do so. You seem very aware of the potential dangers around you, which is good and refreshing.
Now to my lovely three-day weekend. Enjoy your Friday.
“We’re having a discussion, not a fist fight.”
I was having a fist fight.
POF
I do advocate personal responsibility of one’s actions and keeping one’s wits about them. This is why, among other things, I don’t drink. At all. My body, my responsibility.
No you don’t. On one hand you say you advocate responsibility, on the other you effectively nullify any censure of those who fail to exercise responsibility. The whole gist of your reply is th premise that a woman who acts irresponsibly is totally blameless with regard to what happens to her.
On one hand you’re criticising your sister’s naivette, (i.e wishing she were more responsible) on the other, justifying it. Logical failure.
Can you imagine the psychological and social ramifications such a mindset would have?
Are you telling me that relationships with the sexes are better now than they used to be? Maybe in La La land but not in the real world. I live this reality every day. I’ve got to be constantly chaperoned when when I examine women or children else I have no defence if they cry sexual assault. My insurance policy is quite clear on the matter, the onus of proof is on me to prove that I did not sexually assault. Guilty till proven innocent. What planet do you live on POF? It certainly not the real world.
You’re the one who bought up the statistics. What, don’t they mean anything to you? The FACTS state that your most likely to be raped by someone you know, especially when alcohol enters the picture. Why the denial of reality? You may not like the fact but that’s just the way the world works.
So he’s absolved of his actions? Under the influence is akin to an insanity plea?
In the real world it is. He’s not absolved, but it is recongnised that his culpability is diminished. I’m not saying that men who rape are not guilty, I’m saying that women who put themselves in harms way bear some of the responsibility of the consequences of their actions. The victim in this circumstance is not totally innocent since they’ve failed to show a duty of care to themselves. A rational person would have avoided the circumstance.
Your whole attitude seems to be that women should have adult privileges with child like responsibilities. Your own sister a case in point. Rape is not a victimless crime, but sometimes the victim is not entirely innocent.
Good post Snark.
[Nice try. - ed.]
Romanian girls are the best in the world – beautiful and intelligent also! :)
PS: Of course, I exaggerate. But, at least, in Romania, we’re not facing (yet) so much PC brainwashing propaganda.
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