I figured I’d weigh in on the dustup that occurred on this thread of mine between game advocates and MRAs a few days ago. Chuck and Ganttsquarry have pretty good breakdowns of what happened, so go read their posts before continuing.
I encountered both the men’s rights movement and the seduction community at roughly the same time in my life, which I think gives me a somewhat balanced viewpoint on this issue. The animosity that some MRAs and MGTOWs have towards game and its practitioners, I think, is largely due to the idiocies of seduction community members ignorantly running their mouths in MRA/MGTOW venues. Anakin Niceguy explains it a bit better:
In years past, when many men where trying to air their grievances on the internet, trying to come to terms with the misandry and gynocentrism in our society, and trying figure out what to do about it, some PUA-leaning heckler would invariably butt into the conversation and say something like, “You guys are just whiners who are not getting any! You need to learn seduction techniques!” Such an arrogant, myopic, and hopelessly naïve attitude about men’s concerns has understandably left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of MRA and MGTOW men.
In spouting their platitudes without consideration of the legal, cultural, or social mechanisms that have kept men down and necessitated the creation of the men’s rights movement and MGTOW, the sedcom retards (let’s face it, anyone heavily involved in that community is a social retard to some extent) did nothing but tick off MRAs and MGTOWs and create bad blood. Some MGTOW forums have put up specific posts addressing these idiots in their FAQ sections because of this.
Additionally, claiming that MRAs and MGTOWs can’t get laid or some variation thereof is insanely stupid. Beyond it being a use of Code Tan Shaming Language, most men in those movements were driven there precisely BECAUSE of their problems with women and the social, cultural, and governmental institutions that enable their bad behavior. Given that our misandrist society has wrecked the lives of untold men, accusing them of being loser virgins is both ignorant and amazingly callous.
That said, I do have some issues with certain sectors of the MRA and MGTOW movements. In both groups, there is an unfortunate tendency for some members to regard all women as being the same – lying, cheating, backstabbing whores. That’s not only wrong, it puts the men who espouse those beliefs in the same pen as the feminists who declare that “all men are pigs.” In addition, a number of men in these groups stress total avoidance of women as a means of coping. I remember on one MGTOW board reading a number of guys who were literally singing the praises of celibacy. Given that many men want to have relationships with women, telling them that they’re better off smacking it in all cases is rather shortsighted.
In light of this, the rise of the Roissysphere is in all probability the best thing that could have happened for MRA-game community relations. As I’ve already stated, the loose oeuvre of the Roissysphere combines the practical knowledge of game with the political knowledge that the MRAs and MGTOWs have been preaching for years. I personally think that we are witnessing a partial fusion of both groups’ approaches, with The Spearhead and its eclectic group of contributors being the most visible manifestation as of late. This developing “big tent” can only yield good things for men in the future.
{ 61 comments… read them below or add one }
You should follow “unfortunate” with “but understandable”.
Many, probably most, men who find the MGTOW community do so after being railroaded by a “lying, cheating, backstabbing whore”.
Would you be surprised if women in a support group for (genuine) rape victims felt irrational hatred for men as a class?
As Stalin didn’t actually say:
ЕÑÑ‚ÑŒ человек, еÑÑ‚ÑŒ проблема. Ðет человека, нет проблемы.
I would bet good money that the celibacy brigade is not exactly saturated with testosterone-laden youngsters.
Given a broad enough diversity of interests, a solid enough network of friends and family, and a libido sufficiently deadened by encroaching andropause, a man could be pretty happy with the “why bother” option.
Hi there,
I’m a member of the spanish seduction community. I found out the antifeminism blogs and forums back in the day, and as usual I was taken aback by the rampant mysogyny. Due to my character I’ve always thought that when there’s a problem, it’s better to fix myself first, then try to fix the rest of the world . When I was younger I was also full of a mixture and contempt for women, and I blamed the world, society and everyone else and their dog.
And when I started becoming a better person and appreciating what women had to offer, instead of judging them and demanding that they liked me for the wreck of a person I was, then I found out that, surprise! women started liking me more. Women love men who love women, says Zan Perrion, and damn right he is.
However, now that I’ve put my effort and my time into the game (more than 5 years, I was a regular at fastseduction.com with the handle “Wulfen” back in 2004 when this was by no means mainstream) and I think I’ve got that part of my life handled, other questions come into mind, and I’m more interested in the societal implications of a whole generation increasingly hedonistic and without any desire at all in children, marriage or even cohabitation (as is my case for instance). I am now researching on these kind of societal movements and find this blog of yours one of the most interesting, maintaning an objective perspective of the game (which actually works and works really well, and I am living proof of it) with a healthy dose of analysis of the societal causes of the evolution of mating preferences and a non-wishful thinking of what the future may hold. This article does a very good job of balancing both sides.
(Another good blog, in case you don’t know it already, is Pook’s Mill, from a former member of the community who also grown out of it.)
I’m going to post in my website (in spanish however) a series of articles about the sociological implications of game and game going mainstream, and I’ll be sure to reference this one.
BTW, as a final word I don’t think mainstream game will have much influence in society. Personal improvement is really hard, and requires a will to really make changes in your core personality, as well as a lot of effort, enduring a lot of rejection and failures, and a lot of common sense to avoid turning into a freak. In reality I know a lot of people that started into the game and either dropped it altogether (by giving up or finding a girlfriend) or have become social freaks that live only to sarge and obtain mediocre results, if any.
I’ve seen the community in Spain rise from the grounds up, I know lots and lots of apprentice PUAs here since I was one of the first, and I’d estimate that around 5% of the people that started this path have seen real, consistent improvement. Of those, the majority just had one area where they were lacking, and they just needed one nudge in the right direction. And of these, the majority leave the community to pursue other interests once they’ve been 2-3 years in. Get in, learn what you need, get out, proceed with your life. In fact I myself would have left the community a couple years ago were not for the fact that I have a website about seduction (which I am now trying to expand into other areas).
So mainstream seduction, IMHO, won’t have much effect. The guys that try to apply Mystery Method verbatim, without any further personal development, are not a danger since they actually don’t get results, and the people that try to “become naturals” (yeah that’s an oxymoron, but it’s still the best way to play the game :D) will become indistinguishable from actual naturals. You’ll see now and then girls complaining about those weird dressed guys in clubs telling them those weird stories, but as long as I can approach with “Hi girls, how’s it going?” is fine for me. Less competition, actually.
Great blog. Cya.
Lobo Feroz
@OP: Excellent post. Now I understand the relationship between the MRA and “Game” cultures a little bit better.
@Lobo: I tend to find men who “love women” to be of poor moral character. Loving a woman is a good thing. Loving “women”, in the general sense, is a sign of a philanderer. That’s a person who just likes sex in the general sense. Otherwise, I agree with what you’re saying.
Epoxytocin No. 87:
“You should follow “unfortunate†with “but understandableâ€.
Many, probably most, men who find the MGTOW community do so after being railroaded by a “lying, cheating, backstabbing whoreâ€.
Would you be surprised if women in a support group for (genuine) rape victims felt irrational hatred for men as a class?”
To paraphrase Dr. Foreman from House, it’s understandable…and they need to get over it. Commiserating is only helpful up to a point, then it’s time to grow as a person. Many of the guys don’t get past that stage.
In both groups, there is an unfortunate tendency for some members to regard all women as being the same – lying, cheating, backstabbing whores.
Over at Ganttsquarry’s I put up the following estimates
40% of women are outright terrible human beings
30% are generally OK, but can act quite badly at times
20% are good people with some minor flaws
10% are really good people (I used the word amazing there; that may be a bit strong.)
That’s about 70% of women who you need to be very cautious about getting involved with.
“To paraphrase Dr. Foreman from House, it’s understandable…and they need to get over it. Commiserating is only helpful up to a point, then it’s time to grow as a person. Many of the guys don’t get past that stage.”
Many of those guys are older than you and have been through several stages of:
mgtow —> game —> burnout —> mgtow —> game —> burnout
Perhaps, as you get older, you’ll experience the same. Time will tell.
Ah, the wisdom of youth.
Thanks for the link Ferdinand. Excellent write up.
I made a similar comment about The Spearhead. Having close to a dozen? contributors helps the idea of a big tent quite a bit I think.
One issue that the pick up/game material doesn’t really deal with is how to pick out a good woman. There are ways of telling if a woman is a slut, but there are lots of other ways a woman can be LTR unworthy.
There are two ways to get this wrong. One is to have experience only with relatively good girls. Church guys and sheltered betas often fall into this category. Such men are often walking targets, particularly if they stray out beyond their little social niches. The other is to only have experience with relatively bad girls. This is what happens to a lot of players. They only hang around with girls who go to bars and put out right away. Even the best of these kind of women are usually rather mediocre in character. You have to experience true goodness in a woman to know what it is and true goodness is relatively rare in the kind of woman the average player gets involved with. Therefore, because there are so few men, even among the most experienced players, who have experience with both good and bad women, there aren’t a lot of men out there who can accurately compare them.
Most men with high sociosexuality (the cads), if they do get married, end up with women with high sociosexuality (the sluts). The ex-player who settles down with the good girl is, in fact, a relative rarity.
Thursday:
This can end up as a particularly bad disaster for guys who grow up in a more traditionalist and religious setting where they have contact only with decent girls (at least as far as they know), but then decide to rebel against their upbringing. They’re in an especially dangerous position because they’re likely to pass through a period of naivety where they judge the world with liberal principles, but without the protective doublethink, hypocrisy, and unprincipled exceptions that enable ordinary liberals to escape the self-destructive implications of their ideology. Their failure to pass judgment on women of low character can lead them straight into a trap.
Ferdi,
I was just talking about this over at Roissy’s:
“Chuck Ross recently wrote about a very similar issue on his blog, which is about the neverending “blog wars†going on between segments of the SocialCon, HBD and MRA communities on one hand, and the Game/PUA community on the other. Basically, the former groups are attacking the latter, and Chuck hits the nail on the head as to why this is, and I’ve mentioned it above to JB, and note how he hasn’t actually addressed it:
The real reason why there is so much talk about HBD, Western Civ and the like, is because it all acts as smokescreen to keep these guys from having to face, head on, their failings in arguably thee most important area of a Man’s life – Women.
Game, more than any other endeavor a Man will embark upon, will force him to be BRUTALLY honest about himself – and if he ain’t makin’ the cut with the ladies, what he has to do to fix it. And the simple truth of the matter is, that alot of guys are either too afraid, or too angry, to change.
So, we get all this talk about just about everything under the Sun, in a venue that is dedicated to Game – ever notice how few guys here actually discuss it? Their experiences with Women? Etc? I have. And it says alot.
Admitting that one is a failure with Women, is much like a Woman admitting that she cannot attract even minimally attractive Men to do the deed to her – it’s a powerful statement, a deeply profound value judgment, that carries more weight than a thousand Stanford-Binet tests. And so it is quite understandable why Game gets these other groups’ ire.
What’s really low to me is the way alot of these guys basically scapegoat others as a means to deflect away from their own shortcomings. That’s sad.”
Holla back
The Obsidian
The real reason why there is so much talk about HBD, Western Civ and the like, is because it all acts as smokescreen to keep these guys from having to face, head on, their failings in arguably thee most important area of a Man’s life – Women.
You’re normally very insightful, but this is way off base. Someone’s interest in, say, saving Western Civ has very little relation to how good or bad he is with women.
I think many in the MGTOW community are now at peace with Game. The latter itself seems to have transended its juvenile roots as of late, and being used to channel greater and greater numbers of men into masculine awareness.
Thursday, w/all due respect, you’re the one who’s way off base here. If those who crow on and on about these things were really serious, they’d be out there lobbying Congress, or getting involved in the local or state politics in their communities, or mentoring young Men, etc, et al. Not bleating away in a corner of the Internet.
I maintain what I said and I support what Chuck Ross said.
O
The idea that a man’s relative success (or lack thereof) with women is the fundamental measure of his manhood, or, even worse, the most important area of his life is precisely the kind of over-reaching extremism I criticized over at Chuck’s and at Gantt’s. I am a supporter of men learning Game, as you know, but sentiments like that one are just plain silly.
As far as I can tell, the Game and MRA communities have very high overlap, and are natural allies against the feminist/social-con unofficial alliance. Game is very useful to the MRA cause, since a man with Game is unlikely to spring for a $20K ring, a $50K bridezilla wedding, etc., thus effectively starving the beast and helping MRA objectives.
Weird outliers like Porky Domesticus are not representative of MRAs, as no MRA thus far has defended his bitter Omegatude.
Remember that Roissy said that after he gets too old to get hotties, he wants to live a life of essentially MGTOW ‘liquor/stripper’ retirement.
But a man of 50 being an MGTOW is very different from a man of 25 being an MGTOW.
Nova,
My point is simply that, if one takes a step back from the fracas and just takes a wideview of what’s going on here, its fairly easy to see, and again Chuck Ross hit the nail on the head-these are guys who basically throw up smokescreens, Man. And its way past time we began to call em on it.
Now, before you or anyone else starts howling, lol, lemme also say, that I find the MRA cause to be legit-I just think that some of their tactics, of which bashing Game is one, is woefully offbase. If these guy are really serious about making structural changes, again I say they should be involved in the political process, lobbying their Senators and Congressmen, among other things.
Now take Glenn Sacks-he’s an MRA that I got mad respect for. He doesn’t spend his time breaking on Playas-instead, he devotes his time to doing just what I said above-lobbying lawmakers, bringing awareness to MRA issues and getting facetime to make his case before a wider public. If all these “opponents” of Game and supposed champions of MRA, HBD and Western Civ are really serious, all they need do is look to Glenn Sacks-he’s shown them the way. They don’t even need to reinvent the wheel.
Now personally, I don’t see the MRA movement making any major legal/political headway anytime soon, and for many of the reasons you’ve written about Nova, among other bloggers. Simply put-if you buy into Evo-Psych, and I do-Men are too inherently competitive to cohesively work together to bring about change ala the NOW mold. Not. Gonna. Happen. We’re just not wired that way.
Which is why Game is in many ways the perfect solution, because it’s all individually focused. One doesn’t need expensive lobbying efforts or laws repealed and others passed-all one needs is the right material, a dedication to learn, and a desire to change.
Ahh, but you see, that’s the trick-alot of guys out there DO NOT wanna change ANYTHING about themselves. Game is really about growth and self improvement, and many Men are afraid of Change. And again, like Chuck Ross said, the Human Mind can and will concoct all kinds of stuff, all kinds of defences as to why one is a failure. As we all know, Women do this all the time. Now, it seems, so too, do the Menfolk.
I disagree with your view above-a Man who cannot get laid is a sad sight to behold, there’s simply no getting around that fact. Mind you, I’m not talking about the King of All Playas here-just being able to simply get laid with a decent looking chick every now and then. If a guy can’t make that happen, in my book, just about everything about him is seriously suspect.
I gotta tell ya Nova, I’ve never seen so many sorry excuses for Men before in my life. I mean that. Guys who throw up every excuse under the Sun as to why they refuse to make any changes in their lives for the better, talking about all this abstract, big macro shit as if they gonna be able to solve it-Ha! Not buying it one minute. I know the deal. These guys are more than merely afraid. They’re cowards. Style, before he became such, had more balls, and is actually doing more to change the world, than the whole lot of these Keyboard Warriors, there I’ve said it, and I mean it. Because they can’t even change themselves to meet a nice looking lady for a night-how in the hell are they gonna “save” Western Civ? As we say in the hood, “Nigga, puh-leaaasseee…”
So, no, Nova, with all due respect, and I embrace you as a brother, on this one we just gonna have to agree to disagree. All this stuff about MRA, and HBD, and Western Civ, and Conservative this, and Libertarian that, all of that jazz ain’t nothing but elaborate, High IQ smoke and mirrors covering up the simple fact that A, Game WORKS, B, that those who rail against it most don’t have it and C, they’re either too afraid or too angry/bitter or both, to actually try to change their own lives for the better. And I for one am sick and tired of listening to grownassed Men behave like low class Bitches.
So, I decided to speak on it.
And I just did.
By all means, Holla Back ;)
The Obsidian
Yes,
There are more important things in life than discussing MRA, HBD, Western Civilization, Conservatism, and Libertarianism. One them of them being having sex with women. You are a man and you have no interests besides sex, so you’ll be willing to give up everything else for that. It’s only natural. Men are such simple creatures. It’s so easy to please them in this regard.
@Ferdinand
Excellent piece. And much appreciated.
I agree with Obsidian.
There are more important things in life than discussing MRA, HBD, Western Civilization, Conservatism, and Libertarianism. One them of them being having sex with women. You are a man and you have no interests besides sex, so you’ll be willing to give up everything else for that. It’s only natural.
Absolutely, so why are we all on the internet blogging? Blogging doesn’t get us laid. The collapse of civilization does not matter as long as we get laid. The west heading to a neo-fascism because of feminism does not matter as long as we get laid.
Remember guys if you’re on the internet, you’re not getting laid so get off the internet. Therefore any man on the internet is a loser.
The idea that a man’s relative success (or lack thereof) with women is the fundamental measure of his manhood, or, even worse, the most important area of his life
And this is the fundamental problem here. Manhood is not defined by women, and when you place getting laid as the measure of manhood, you are letting women define your manhood. By definition this is being manipulated by women. In addition, a man who believes such nonsense also opens himself to being easily manipulated by others through the lure of sex.
Obsidian, this latest post of you is very spot on:
We have a saying: excuses are for excusers. If you are not able to fix yourself, how are you going to fix the world?
What about someone who already has developed himself to a point who seems acceptable – of course, not excluding further development by any means – and also wants to make a contribution? The most obvious way is to write about what he has learnt so that the rest of the world can learn as well. But we usually end up preching to the choir anyway.
I’m looking forward to read your blog…
Lobo Feroz
To all those who thinks Obsidian is defending Sex Uber Alles (TM) and that nothing can never ever be more important:
Sex is like oxygen. It matters most when you’re not getting any.
That’s why many people from the seduction community leave it once they have fixed the parts of their personality or lifestyle that made them get none. And they move on to more important stuff.
(Coincidentally, that’s why I’m here, to try to get in touch with folks interested in that more important stuff.)
The problem is when you’re not getting any at all, and you shout at the world around you to change, instead of fixing yourself first. Because it’s easier to blame others than to change. That’s the whole point and me, having been in the two sides of the fence (angry need teenager before, successful mid-thirties nowadays with looks, game & lifestyle to back it up) can see totally where both sides of the debate come from.
Lobo Feroz
Lobo says ..
Sex is like oxygen. It matters most when you’re not getting any.
That’s why many people from the seduction community leave it once they have fixed the parts of their personality or lifestyle that made them get none. And they move on to more important stuff.
ROFL. Does that explain the inane projection of angst of some PUAs on the Ghosters: “You guys are losers for avoiding women.”
Translation: I am not getting any and/or I can’t deal with the idea of being alone and without sex, so I’ll put down the guys who can and who don’t want to deal with the nonsense. It’s like Chuck Ross said, “Humans rely on self-defense mechanisms to protect from the horrible thought that we are somehow defunct.”
I posted this at Gantt’s place:
I didn’t know Obsidian was defending me. It looks like its me, him, Prime, and Roosh in one corner, and all the other MRAs in the other haha. Roissy – as per usual (and smartly) has refrained from weighing in on the debate.
Anyway, to preface my comments, let me say that I don’t think you’re a guy that makes excuses. Neither are Novaseeker or Welmer or Ferdinand. You guys have obviously experienced things in your life – with women – that has shaped your worldview. For whatever reason you have taken to MRA, you seem to have backed it up with rigid intellectual thought. I respect that your beliefs are well-founded.
However, there are MRA types (and again, I sincerely regret not delineating between virgins by choice and MRAs like you guys who have legitimate reasons for being so) who take on the MRA cause by default. They haven’t come to it out of experience or hardship. They’ve come to it out of *lack of experience and hardship*.
This all started when Roosh called out virgins, Pro Male called out Roosh, and I called out Pro Male for saying something to the effect that all the information he needs to know about women can be observed and gleaned from a distance. He made the inane analogy that one can learn the nature of heroin by observation rather than using it.
I called him on this. This is BS. You can’t learn *anything* about women just by second-hand gossip. You aren’t emotionally invested. You don’t get heartbroken or hurt. You don’t feel the exhiliration and happiness of love. There are so many emotions that one misses out on that help shape a man when he has never (or rarely) experienced the companionship of a woman.
These experiences can have positive or negative outcomes, but that’s irrelevant.
Again, I painted too strong a caricature of MRAs. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used MRA in my title. That would have saved a lot of argument. But either way, my focus was men who seem to despise women despite not having had any experience with them. They jump on the bandwagon of hatred against women and say stupid things like “don’t have sex with American girls or you’ll get STDsâ€. Completely pointless jibberish like that.
The seperate issue is whether or not a virgin is wise. I should have stated my thesis thusly: “All else being equal, a man who has experienced female companionship and relationship is wiser than a virgin (or man who has very limited experience).â€
I should have also qualified it by saying that the older the man is while still virgin the less wise or *connected* he will be.
Dare I use the movie “40 Year Old Virgin†to point out how naive and utterly stupid Steve Carrel’s character was. He knew about electronics and toys but that was it. He was so out of touch with the world that he barely existed. He was a joke.
The lack of wisdom may be associated with the fact that a virgin hasn’t experienced many other things that life has to offer. He’s likely very conservative or flat-out scared of the world. This limits experience and wisdom collection. There’s also the bias towards being a “loser†in the sense that he has the stench of failure on him. I hate to be harsh, but we all know these types of guys. They are so scared that they fail to launch. When they fail to launch they attach themselves to the nearest outlet that provides solace for their failure. For virgin males in a gynocentric world, MRA is one of those outlets. Not that David Alexander is a strict MRA, but he is one of these people that constantly makes excuses and forms some distorted reality so that he doesn’t even have to fucking try. That’s sad, and that’s the type of thing that Roosh, Obsidian, and I find repulsive and sad. For that reason, for those virgins or one-bangers, we make our statements.
So here – on your blog – I’m backing slightly away from my original argument. There isn’t a *direct* and *complete* correlation between experience with women and overall wisdom. I kind of tried to say that in my original post by pointing out that men like Mystery who devote all of their energy to such pursuits are likely just as unwise as any virgin. But the experience with women is correlated with many other things that makes a man a man. Without experience with women, he’s missing *something*.
I’ll leave it at that. Thank you.
I’ve responded over at my place.
And this is the fundamental problem here. Manhood is not defined by women, and when you place getting laid as the measure of manhood, you are letting women define your manhood. By definition this is being manipulated by women.
Case in point:
A woman married to wealthy provider will sigh, “I need a REAL man” – and ends up fucking the hunky pool boy.
A woman who has spent her youth slutting it up with bartenders, druggie bohemians, and assorted bad-boys one day sighs, “I need a REAL man” – and gets into a relationship with an ambitious, responsible go-getter.
In either case, what a “real” man is changes as the womens’ needs change. It would be folly to listen to them.
I’m sorry, but Chuck Ross is a better Man than me, if by that one takes it to mean putting lipstick on a pig and calling it pretty. CR can be diplomatic but I gots to keep it real, and the reality is, that a lot of dudes in the MRA/HBD/Conservative/Libertariansphere are indeed LOSERS. There, I’ve said it, and goes a heck of a long way as to why guys like Roissy and Roosh are such a breath of fresh air-they’re as conservative as they come, yet they have something else about them that makes their message accessible, indeed desirable. And do you wanna know what that is?
THESE GUYS GET LAID, HENCE, THEY ARE COOL.
The. End.
Both of these guys can reach audiences that the vast majority of the aforementioned dudes can only dream about-Roissy has a dedicated cadre of female supporters, and I’m sure Roosh can boast of the same. That’s because, when you’re hitting on all cylinders, Women tend to be attracted to you, even while they claim to hate your guts, heh heh. I’ve seen it happen all the time in my own life. But then, when you’re an Alpha, things go down like that.
So, yes, what Roosh said last weekend-I ain’t tryin’ to hear a single jot or tittle of ANYTHING a dude who don’t know what it’s like to get his dick wet inside a warm female body, has to say, about ANYTHING. Like that flick 40 Year Old Virgin, dude’s on some other ish that I simply cannot relate to, and judging by what guys like Chuck Ross, Roosh, Ferdinand and Roissy have said in their writings, I am confident they would agree with my position.
Now let me takeup Chuck’s point about the Dave Alex’s of the world, which is very interesting to me-if they’re so convinced that Game ain’t for them, why in the hell do they make it their business to hangout and participate in Game forums? Simple: HATERATION. Misery loves company, and the DAs of the world cannot stand to stew in their misery alone, so they do their damnest to try and bring down others. And they exist in the MRA/HBD/SocialConsphere too, they just have an elaborate scheme to coverup what DA at least has enough balls to show nakedly before the world.
In the book, The Anatomy Of Female Power, the author basically argues that one of the reasons why Feminism caught hold was because it gave disaffected Women a way to grind their axes with the world-in other words, fugly, and often Lesbian and Jewish Women, with whom most Men would rather work it out with Skeletor’s hand before shagging them, were pissed off about this, and were motivated to visit their bile on the world, and Feminism was the vehicle to do that. Since I’m a big fan of Parsimony, it makes perfect sense to me. And I see the exact same thing happening in the Manosphere. The recent “blogwars”, part of the battle taking place right here, is indicative of this.
What’s really sad here is that, the vast majority of Playas either already support the MRA/HBD agenda or would were it not for the nutters in these guys’ midst. Moreover, unlike the vast majority of Women, whose ability to attract guys is largely fixed and immutable, we Men, being Nature’s Guinea Pig, have a lot more room to roam, so to speak-we can LEARN how to make ourselves better, not just in sexual terms, but accross the board. This is why I say that the socalled “natural” Alpha Males aren’t the cat’s meow-its the “un-naturals” that are a force to be reckoned with. I kinda liken it to the Marvel superheroes Daredevil and Spider-Man.
Now, since we’re all guys, everyone here knows what I’m taking about-Spiderman got his powers by bitten by a genetically hopped up spider. Daredevil, on the other hand, actually LOST some of his “powers” in a freak accident that took his sight. He’s blind, but the accident did give him something in return-his remaining senes were hypersensitive.
Whereas Spiderman got a whole suite of superpowers at his disposal, Daredevil had to first learn to deal with the loss of his sight, then learn to master his remaining hopped up senses, and then trained himself to be a master martial artist, boxer, gymnast and acrobat. Unlike the Hulk, Blade or again, Spiderman, he doesn’t have superhuman strength. Just his senses.
Yet, in the comic book world, Daredevil is regarded as hands down one of the best hand to hand combatants, able to own Spiderman in a straightup, take down the Punisher, and fight Captation America to a standstill. Not bad for a Blind Man.
In other words, don’t fuck w/ole Hornhead.
Daredevil’s story deeply resonates with me, because, in many ways, I’m “disabled”-not physically, but socially. I’m Black, blue-collar, non-college educated and largely self-taught; I’ve slept on park benches in the cold because I was homeless; I’ve sat in the pen for a bullshit charge that to this day still marks me as damaged goods on the job market, and yup, I’ve seen my fair share of dealings w/ruinous Women.
Yet, for all my trials and tribulations, I just don’t project the degree of downright bitterness I see evidenced by so many in the “manosphere”-by guys who, by every objective measure, have more on the ball than I do-you’re White, most all of you are highly formally educated, make more money than I do and in general, have more life options than me. Yet, I can honestly say that I’ve found some degree of happiness and contentment with my lot in life, and by the writings, and more importantly, the tone behind them, of s many of you, you sound so deeply UNhappy.
One can specualte why that is on both sides of the fence. All’s I know is, that life is too short going through it bitter over the bad hand I was dealt. Not only that, but being a bitter stick in the mud of Man is a serious ginakill for the ladies. I don’t see my life as one long string of misery, quite the contrary-like Daredevil, it has given me a keen insight into other’s lives. And that, is a superpower all its own.
Look fellas-it is, what it is. Now, you can do what you wanna, God bless ya whichever way you choose to go. All well and good. But if you honstly think that things are gonna change because you simply sitdown and blog up a storm, or worse, try to “do battle” with dem PUA heathens, I can disabuse you of that notion right here and now-aint gonna happen. All you’ll succeed in doing is turning off even more Women and alienating the last remaining atoll of Men who could actually save you from evolutionary oblivion.
As the Blck Sheep said, the choice, is yours.
Now adjourn your asses.
The Obsidian
This is what Chuck Ross is in part commenting on…
Obsidian, a thoughtful and effective Game advocate left this comment at Ferdinand’s yesterday. I thought I would respond because I disagree with him, both in tone and substance.
“Now, before you or anyone else starts howling, lol, lemme also say, that I find the MRA cause to be legit-I just think that some of their tactics, of which bashing Game is one, is woefully offbase.”
Too broad a brush. Most MRAs seem to be fine with Game. If I am right, then it is hardly one of “their†tactics. I have no problem if he wants to defend Game from the few MRAs (or anyone else for that matter) who attack it. I do agree that a few MRAs were offbase with regard to their criticism of Game.
“If these guy are really serious about making structural changes, again I say they should be involved in the political process, lobbying their Senators and Congressmen, among other things.”
Who says they aren’t? I have all sorts of passionate positions, but I’ll be honest, I don’t email congressmen. Why? Because its largely ineffective. MRA is in its infancy. Changing as many hearts and minds as possible is about the only effective strategy right now in my view. Politicians aren’t leaders, at best they are followers.
“Now take Glenn Sacks-he’s an MRA that I got mad respect for. He doesn’t spend his time breaking on Playas-instead, he devotes his time to doing just what I said above-lobbying lawmakers, bringing awareness to MRA issues and getting facetime to make his case before a wider public. If all these “opponents†of Game and supposed champions of MRA, HBD and Western Civ are really serious, all they need do is look to Glenn Sacks-he’s shown them the way. They don’t even need to reinvent the wheel.”
Agreed. Most MRAs would agree as well I suspect. I know I certainly like his style.
“Now personally, I don’t see the MRA movement making any major legal/political headway anytime soon, and for many of the reasons you’ve written about Nova, among other bloggers.”
Agreed. So what? I write and discuss all sorts of things that aren’t making headway. In many cases, causes I hold dear are becoming less realistic as time goes on. If anything, its fun to rag on feminists. Do you oppose Roissy when he does this?
“Simply put-if you buy into Evo-Psych, and I do-Men are too inherently competitive to cohesive work together to bring about change ala the NOW mold. Not. Gonna. Happen. We’re just not wired that way.”
Largely agree. NOW and other leftist ideas will crumble under their own weight if given enough time. To the extent that a mens rights movement can speed up the process, all the better. Should Glenn Sacks, a man just complimented, retire?
“Which is why Game is in many ways the perfect solution, because it’s all individually focused. One doesn’t need expensive lobbying efforts or laws repealed and others passed-all one needs is the right material, a dedication to learn, and a desire to change.”
Largely agree. Game is the micro to MRAs macro. Game is not a solution because their are no solutions. Game helps though.
“Ahh, but you see, that’s the trick-alot of guys out there DO NOT wanna change ANYTHING about themselves. Game is really about growth and self improvement, and many Men are afraid of Change. And again, like Chuck Ross said, the Human Mind can and will concoct all kinds of stuff, all kinds of defences as to why one is a failure. As we all know, Women do this all the time. Now, it seems, so too, do the Menfolk.”
Yes, some men don’t work enough at self improvement. Some are even bitter. Some blame women for their failures. Call 60 minutes. How this invalidates MRA efforts is beyond me.
“I disagree with your view above-a Man who cannot get laid is a sad sight to behold, there’s simply no getting around that fact. Mind you, I’m not talking about the King of All Playas here-just being able to simply get laid with a decent looking chick every now and then. If a guy can’t make that happen, in my book, just about everything about him is seriously suspect.”
This is nonsense. Just about EVERYTHING about him is suspect? I can think of plenty of guys I know, who almost certainly don’t get laid, who are good, decent men. A 60 year old guy that works at a gas station should be viewed with suspicion because he doesn’t get laid? Please. How bout a religious guy that sticks to his principles and avoids pre marital sex? How bout a guy in a wheelchair? Really, I love Game and I love Roissy, but man there is more to life than fucking.
Another thing. Men tend to gravitate to what they are good at. Naturals, or men who run Game with ease, will spend more time and effort trying to get laid.
At some point, for a guy that lacks the natural talents, both mentally and physically, Game and chasing women lose their luster when compared to other pursuits. Lets get real here. Some men, no matter how much they try will always suck with women. This fact doesn’t make them worthless human beings worthy of suspicion. They might just accomplish more than the guy out chasing tail all night too.
“I gotta tell ya Nova, I’ve never seen so many sorry excuses for Men before in my life.”
Exaggerate much? He could give me his best example of poor MRA behavior and I could counter with all the punks, thugs, criminals and vermin I see everyday in the news. I’d say they are more “sorry†than the most bitter MRA he could find.
” I mean that. Guys who throw up every excuse under the Sun as to why they refuse to make any changes in their lives for the better, talking about all this abstract, big macro shit as if they gonna be able to solve it-Ha!”
Self Improvement and “big macro shit†aren’t mutually exclusive. Also, men can be brilliant and insightful in one area and terrible in another. The latter doesn’t negate the former. If I think an MRA is bitter with regard to his personal dealings with women, fine. It won’t stop me from finding insight into other things he talks about. Everyone has their biases and weaknesses. By the way, solutions don’t exist. Only mitigations. I’m not dreaming of Utopia and most MRAs that I read aren’t either.
“Not buying it one minute. I know the deal. These guys are more than merely afraid. They’re cowards.”
I think Obsidian is emoting. I’m sure it feels good. Way to vague. Who are “these†guys?
“Style, before he became such, had more balls, and is actually doing more to change the world, than the whole lot of these Keyboard Warriors, there I’ve said it, and I mean it. Because they can’t even change themselves to meet a nice looking lady for a night-how in the hell are they gonna “save†Western Civ? As we say in the hood, “Nigga, puh-leaaasseee…â€
Game has plenty of “keyboard†warriors in their own right. This fact doesn’t delegitimize Game. Most MRAs are pretty aware of the long odds they face in “saving†Western Civ. I agree on Style making worthwhile contributions though. What this has to do with another man choosing to fight on another front, I have no idea.
“So, no, Nova, with all due respect, and I embrace you as a brother, on this one we just gonna have to agree to disagree. All this stuff about MRA, and HBD, and Western Civ, and Conservative this, and Libertarian that, all of that jazz ain’t nothing but elaborate, High IQ smoke and mirrors covering up the simple fact that A, Game WORKS, B, that those who rail against it most don’t have it and C, they’re either too afraid or too angry/bitter or both, to actually try to change their own lives for the better. And I for one am sick and tired of listening to grownassed Men behave like low class Bitches.”
Again, Game and MRA aren’t mutually exclusive. Perhaps I should provide a personal example. Obsidian, I get laid. I’m not G Manifesto or Roissy, but I do alright. It’s possible I’m even more successful than you. Who knows. I enjoy the company of women. I’m not bitter or angry(sometimes I should probably be more angry). I also consider myself a Conservative/ libertarian MRAer. I have no problem extolling the virtues of Game, using it, and pointed out injustice in our legal system and gynocentric cultural bias. I’ll also submit that learning Game should open a mans eyes even more to injustice and cultural decline not less.
Either you think Game and Mens Rights Advocacy are basically incompatible, or you are using a sledgehammer when a fly swatter would do.
You don’t know me, but I’ve been reading you now for close to a year. I often agree with you. I think you provide valuable insights and a good check on some of the things said around the Roissysphere. You seem like a truly decent and good man. Just want to let you know that I respect you. If you read this, I’d like to hear your response.
A couple quick responses to Obsidian’s latest effort with the sledge hammer….
“I’m sorry, but Chuck Ross is a better Man than me, if by that one takes it to mean putting lipstick on a pig and calling it pretty. CR can be diplomatic but I gots to keep it real,”
Chuck Ross is a smart guy who takes thoughtful positions. He is also brave enough to tweak them or make new distinctions when he thinks he’s been a bit to broad. Good for him.
“and the reality is, that a lot of dudes in the MRA/HBD/Conservative/Libertariansphere are indeed LOSERS.”
Such nuance. Let me get this straight, alot of men who choose to blog about these issues are losers but Obsidian who chooses to comment ( a lot) on blogs isn’t a loser? Got it.
“THESE GUYS GET LAID, HENCE, THEY ARE COOL.”
I agree that Roissy and Roosh are cool. I agree that they have unique voices that are compelling to me and many others. Their insights are invaluable. I have said before this coolness is helpful to men concerned with mens issues. Their message, if taken and implemented is empowering, especially on the personal level.
“The. End.”
The end to what? Being cool isn’t everything.
“Both of these guys can reach audiences that the vast majority of the aforementioned dudes can only dream about-Roissy has a dedicated cadre of female supporters, and I’m sure Roosh can boast of the same.”
They do have large audiences. A compelling message that isn’t found anywhere else combined with witty,humorous, and insightful writing will do that. I also have no doubt that both don’t lack for female attention. What does this have to do with men who choose to talk about other issues?
“So, yes, what Roosh said last weekend-I ain’t tryin’ to hear a single jot or tittle of ANYTHING a dude who don’t know what it’s like to get his dick wet inside a warm female body, has to say, about ANYTHING. Like that flick 40 Year Old Virgin, dude’s on some other ish that I simply cannot relate to, and judging by what guys like Chuck Ross, Roosh, Ferdinand and Roissy have said in their writings, I am confident they would agree with my position.”
ANYTHING? Once again, an indefensible statement. I’m confident they wouldn’t agree with your unnecessarily extreme position even if they don’t agree with me. Does Stephen Hawking have anything worthwhile to say? If he does, you lose. This is a very juvenile effort. Sorry.
For whats its worth Obsidian I would consider myself right in line with Ferdinand. Of course I’m sure we disagree on things, but I’m talking about the tone and balance of his website. You can’t pigeonhole me as someone against game or who doesn’t get laid either. The “us against them” strawman isn’t going to fly. I’m as big a Roissy fan as you will find.
Hi Gantt,
Thanks for your response, and I didn’t know you’d been reading me for so long, wow! You make some legit counterpoints to my comments; my only thing is, this whole “debate”, btw the MRA or elements of it, and the SocialCons or elements of that, and the Game/PUA community (or elements of *that*, lol!) is really a big waste of time-none of it is productive, when you think about it. Also: Playas didn’t start the “war”; we were “attacked” first.
So you can understand my tendency toward heavyhandedness, given all the above.
As for Game & MRA, I think both Roosh and Roissy, in their own way, have said they have no problem with the latter and in many ways are supporters of them. I myself am the same way-many of the causes the MRA works toward I support, like Roe For Men, reforms in Divorce and Family Law, and changes in the social landscape insofar as how Men are treated and perceived. Again, I just have deep reservations that these chanes will actually happen for the previously stated reasons above, among other things.
I think it’s important to take my comments about not listening to an involuntarily celibate Man in its proper context-in no way was I talking about a 60 year old Man, or a Man who who was disabled-these are conditions over which he has no control, and that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about able bodied and relatively younger Men who really have no excuse as to why they aren’t enjoying the same kinds of female company WE enjoy. And in a lot of cases, excuses such as those MRA and so on can provide, are used as rationales.
But anyway, yea, all I’m saying is that both camps can get a lot more done if we keep our eyes on the prize. And thanks again for the kind thoughts.
The Obsidian
Now thats the Obsidian I know and admire. Much more reasonable in my humble opinion. Thanks for the distinctions and response.
Yup I have read you for awhile. I keep hoping you will get a blog. Your insights and life experience are valuable and need to be heard. Game was attacked first I agree. Thats why my 1st post on this whole brouhaha was a defense of game.
“But anyway, yea, all I’m saying is that both camps can get a lot more done if we keep our eyes on the prize. And thanks again for the kind thoughts.”
Your welcome. I think this sentiment is a good one to end on. Well said.
One thing I have to say about the MRA ‘movement’ :
What actions are they taking? Why can’t they get protests of 100 people organized in major cities? From there politicans take notice, others join in, funding arrives, etc. I would attend and participate vocally in favor of men’s rights.
Look at how the Tea Party movement has exploded.
But the MRA crowd can’t even organize the most basic of protests? Why? It would appear that the letter ‘A’ in MRA stands for ‘Armchair’.
This goes back to Obsidian’s point. There are people who DO things, and people who DON’T.
Gantt,
My blog should be up & running later this month, after much thought and cogitation on the matter, lol. I didn’t get into this to do a blog or whatever, but I do see a need for a different voice in the crowd. So, here I go…
TFH, excellent point as per usual. A few years back here in Philly, a big writeup was done on the MRA movement. The write, a Black Woman who’s name I don’t recall right now, attended a local meeting in the home of one of the members. She said that they all looked like overweight Men who were bitter at being divorced and now being forced to pay up in terms of alimony and child support.
Now, we can argue that statement from here till the cows come home, but the bottomline is, that’s the perception of the MRAs. And in the post-JFK, tv and Internet age, looks matter. Not to mention overall vibes.
Again: there’s a reason, a huge one, why Roissy, RooshV, Mystery and Style are so successful, with both Men and Women. That reason stems from the fact that these Men have GAME. Simply put, for most Men most of the time, being a winner in life has a lot to do with being successful with Women. There’s simply no getting around that fact. And, when one thinks about it, there are deep and profound evo-reasons for this-guys who can’t make it happen wrt the ladies are in a big way, “losers”. Don’t hate the messenger, take it up with God, or Nature, or Evolution or whatever you want to call it. I didn’t make the rules. Only keeping it real.
And no, please do not try to obfsuscate the issue by tossing in old or wheelchair bound guys. Nor are we talking about the next Newton. The vast majority of guys ain’t old, disabled or rarified geniuses-theyre just regular guys who could be living a better quality of life if they only tried.
The one thing that MRA, HBD and SocialCons tend to have in common, is that they tend to attract guys who aren’t necessarily the most social people for whatever reason. And part of that inability stems from a lack of success with Women. I’m just saying, and again, as TFH notes above, there’s a reason why NONE of these groups can muster a public show of force of a mere 100 guys in any major American city. Connect the dots.
No one has ever said that the sum total of a Man’s life is the Pursuit of Pussy-but I’ll tell you this: any Man who denies that one of life’s greatest pleasures, is being between a beautiful Woman’s thighs, is either lying or being woefully naive-40 Year Old Virgin anyone?
It’s very easy to take shots at targets outside oneself. Its hard-very, very hard-to take a good, long, hard look in he mirror.
I’m just sayin.
The Obsidian
there’s a reason why NONE of these groups can muster a public show of force of a mere 100 guys in any major American city.
Think before you talk about socons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_Keepers
Not that the PKs don’t have a lot of the white knighting flaws of many social conservatives.
Thursday:
what will the Promise Keepers do when they realize that women’s behavior doesn’t necessarily match up with their agenda?
Obsidian,
I agree. I support the principles of MRA, and if they have a protest scheduled for my town, I will make sure I am THERE to support it.
But where are the protests? Why are there not even 100-person protests? Look at how successful the Tea Party movement has been in a short time. Thousands of people, per city, per week (and those are FANTASTIC places to run Game on hotties, BTW).
Even more simply, divorced men should organize, and take it upon themselves to inform young men of what the laws are, why a pre-nup is partially protective, etc. This could include taking young men out to the courthouse to sit in on a family court hearing day (which is open to the public for anyone interested). If more young men were informed, MRAs could ‘starve the beast’ easily. But no such organized effort exists.
I would support the MRA ‘movement’, if they were actually doing anything. The ‘A’ in MRA stands for ‘Armchair’.
Dare I use the movie “40 Year Old Virginâ€
If you really want to, but it proves you’re wrong since the only example you have is completely fictitious and self contradictory (Steve Carrell had a minimum wage job but could afford a $2000/month apartment and a slew of expensive toys).
That movie was pretty much nothing but propaganda.
Besides what are all of you real men doing on the internet? Shouldn’t you be out getting laid or in the process of getting laid? If you spend anymore time on blogs you will be regarded as a loser.
The internet is the most powerful activist tool ever invented.
Why is anyone surprised that MRAs use it a lot?
WRT Fifth complaining about MRAs not doing anything else, this is not true. Many of them do a lot. But if it’s not on the internet, YOU don’t see it.
What many of you guys don’t understand are the huge forces undermining MRAs.
e.g. see …
http://www.angryharry.com/esNoMensGroups.htm
With regard to protesting, demonstrating etc etc, there is a real problem with this.
1. Most active MRAs live miles away from each other.
2. The media often portray men’s protests in a negative way – making things worse.
Finally, whoever said that up there that MRAs are not making progress is just plain wrong.
“Besides what are all of you real men doing on the internet? Shouldn’t you be out getting laid or in the process of getting laid? If you spend anymore time on blogs you will be regarded as a loser.”
You’ve repeated this question a lot during this discussion so I guess I’ll answer. I have a girlfriend for one so I get laid all I want. I don’t need to spend time Gaming random chicks. I actually don’t even practice Game although I incorporate some of the things I’ve learned in different situations.
For me, the internet and blogging is my hobby. To tell the truth, I engage in much more “guy talk” and have more male comradarie on here than in real life. My friends and others I hang out with don’t really like talking about this shit. So blogs and the internet are my outlet. Sometimes it’s hard to balance.
Anyway, internet use has nothing to do with being an incubated virgin with a huge gaping void in the place where life experience should be.
As for me being wrong because of my use of “40 Year Old Virgin”, I know guys like this but its pointless to bring up since its completely anecdotal.
For a real life example, how about Sodini? He was effectively a virgin. He hadn’t had sex in 20 years, and had only had sex about 50 times during his whole life. Sodini wasn’t a stupid guy, but its doubtful that he could relate to others. He was a kook. Far out in left field, and his writings match some of the things I hear a lot of men saying on the Web.
For a real life example, how about Sodini?
Sodini was a successful man with a high paying job who amassed a small fortune. He was a weight lifter who was tall, good looking, and healthy. He had a great life. His problem was that he internalized the lie that not getting laid makes you a loser. Had Soldini not internalized that lie he wouldn’t have snapped and killed all those women.
I have a girlfriend for one so I get laid all I want.
So what are you doing here, “real man”? “Real men” aren’t supposed to have any hobbies. You’re supposed to spend every waking second getting laid or planning to get laid. You shouldn’t be here, “real man”.
Harry,
If people who support to concept of Men’s Rights (which includes 100% of the Game community), have trouble finding evidence of *any* attempts by the MRA to make reach changes through the political and judicial systems, it is safe to say that the MRA cause is not making much headway.
As far as your reasons for why a demonstration of 100 people ‘would be portrayed negatively by the media’, that is a lame excuse. The Tea Parties faced the same obstacle and it did not stop them. In fact, the Tea Party movement will have several people who support MRA causes.
Finally, whoever said that up there that MRAs are not making progress is just plain wrong.
Show us concrete examples of progress. I would be delighted to see some.
Pro-Male,
His problem was that he internalized the lie that not getting laid makes you a loser.
Good luck overturning the ‘lie’ believed by 99% of men AND women.
I fail to see how the MRA cause is strengthened by a doomed attempt to normalize involuntary celibacy. That will do even more to block mainstream acceptance than anything the media/feminists/socialcons could do.
So exactly what have YOU done to advance men’s rights? Show me the results.
Pro Male:
“So what are you doing here, “real manâ€? “Real men†aren’t supposed to have any hobbies. You’re supposed to spend every waking second getting laid or planning to get laid. You shouldn’t be here, “real manâ€.”
unlike you, virgin, i can balance blogging with fucking women. sorry you can’t juggle the two. take your dick out one of your hands and maybe you’ll be able to.
@Fifth Horseman
“As far as your reasons for why a demonstration of 100 people ‘would be portrayed negatively by the media’, that is a lame excuse.”
A lame excuse for what?
Have you ever been on a demonstration for men’s rights?
I have. Quite a few, actually.
Have you?
Harry,
You did not answer my question.
Show us concrete examples of progress. I would be delighted to see some.
So where are these examples of MR progress? Show us.
I fail to see how the MRA cause is strengthened by a doomed attempt to normalize involuntary celibacy
It’s not about “normalizing” involuntary celibacy. It’s about knowing that there’s more to life than getting laid. Celibacy is one option. Another is being willing to dump a chick instead of dealing with her inane crap even if that means not getting laid for a short time while finding the next chick. Lots of players aren’t willing to do something as simple as dump a chick when necessary so there easily manipulated by women.
unlike you, virgin, i can balance blogging with fucking women. sorry you can’t juggle the two. take your dick out one of your hands and maybe you’ll be able to.
Why are you spending so much time arguing with me? You’re a loser by your own definition, “real man” (TM).
It doesn’t matter. Your girlfriend is a myth.
It’s about knowing that there’s more to life than getting laid.
Did anyone in the Game community claim otherwise? You are starting to sound like a Socialcon now.
Lots of players aren’t willing to do something as simple as dump a chick when necessary so there easily manipulated by women.
Proof? You claim (laughably) that Roosh and Roissy are easily manipulated by women. What do you base such a claim on?
I have never heard of a sold Game practitioner who is easily ‘manipulated by women’.
Are you sure you know what Game is? Tell you what – define what ‘Game’ is, as per your understanding.
Did anyone in the Game community claim otherwise?
Roosh and Chuck, for starters.
Proof?
That Roosh thinks the MRA is made up of nothing but virgins.
I haven’t claimed that Roissy is easily manipulated by women. Roosh, yes. Roissy, no. Roosh is obsessed with getting laid to the point of insanity. This means that he will miss important things that the women he is involved with are doing. Roosh has blinders on so a woman with enough guile or luck can easily manipulate him.
Roissy is different. Getting laid is important to Roissy. It may be the most important thing in his life, but its not everything in his life. Roissy actually talks about other issues as well.
Your problem is that your viewing this as all or nothing. The problem is not all game practitioners, but SOME game practitioners. It’s certainly not a fault with game.
@Fifth Horsemen
“Show us concrete examples of progress. I would be delighted to see some.”
I am not your tutor.
I suggest you read and UNDERSTAND some good MRA articles.
You seem to be remarkably lacking when it comes to understanding what is going on. Too busy thinking about getting laid, would be my guess.
But I’ll tell you this.
I don’t want people going around slagging off MRAs.
And I was under the impression that many Game players were keen to support MRAs – and vice versa – for mutual benefit.
As such, your behaviour undermines BOTH camps..
Thus demonstrating – YET AGAIN – how little do you understand about activism and about what is going on.
And yet you have the nerve to pontificate about what MRAs should be doing?
You are virtually clueless when it comes to MRAs and their activism, or lack thereof.
And every time that you try to undermine this potential synergy between MRAs and Game advocates, I hope that people round here will recognise that you are undermining BOTH groups.
Roosh and Chuck, for starters.
Show me where Roosh said something to this effect.
This means that he will miss important things that the women he is involved with are doing. Roosh has blinders on so a woman with enough guile or luck can easily manipulate him.
I see no evidence of this whatsoever. Again, what do you base this conclusion about Roosh being easily manipulated.
And even if that were true, how is that a threat to MRA?
Also, you still have to define your understanding of Game, as requested by me earlier.
Harry wrote :
I am not your tutor.
Translation : There IS no concrete progress by the MRA ‘movement’.
You claimed that there was. I asked for proof. You retreated.
You seem to be remarkably lacking when it comes to understanding what is going on.
Projection. At any rate, there IS nothing going on. MRA’s cannot muster even a tiny protest, and you have admitted that there are no real results you can provide evidence of.
The MRA movement is all talk, no action. You have demonstraed it.
And I was under the impression that many Game players were keen to support MRAs
I do strongly support the MRA cause. But in the last 3 days, I have seen that the *people* running the MRA movement are wholly inadequate. So these noble goals are not going to move forward one inch.
I clearly said that I would attend an MRA protest if they ever had one. Your reaction to this was “Hey, let’s alientate the tiny number of people who would go out of their way to support MRA”. Brilliant.
You are virtually clueless when it comes to MRAs and their activism, or lack thereof.
You are right about the ‘lack thereof’. There is not MRA activism. I asked for proof (which I would be delighted to see), and instead, you retreat into a ‘I don’t need to show any proof of results’ rant.
And every time that you try to undermine this potential synergy between MRAs and Game advocates,
YOU are the one undermining it. You are going out of your way to make the MRA movement look like a non-entity, and alienate the 100% of Game practitioners who support MRA ideas (but are finding the MRA crowd to be an all talk/no action bunch).
So, again, where are these ‘results’ that you claim exist? Where are these ‘demonstrations’ that you claim exist?
Again, in summary, I support all the principles of MRA, but in the last 3 days have found that this noble cause, which would easily be supported by 70% of the public if they were made aware, is run by incredibly ineffective people. 3 days ago, I had no idea I would ever be opposing an MRA person, given how strongly I support the principles.
The MRA crowd cannot muster even tiny protests of 100 people in a major US city. They can produce no evidence of any results they have gotten in the legal system. Harry claims that there are results, but when asked to provide details, he chooses to berate the few people who are actually sympathetic to the cause. The mystery of why this ‘movement’ has amounted to a big fat zero continues…… /sarc
It is a shame that such an important and noble cause (supported by 100% of the Game community and probably 70% of the general public) has incredibly ineffective armchair people at the helm. Someday a real MRA leader will emerge, and he will be from the Game community (i.e. a doer rather than a talker).
Pro Male:
“It doesn’t matter. Your girlfriend is a myth.”
Shit, I’m busted.
Harry, Pro-Male,
OK, real simple and easy question to answer.
The NFL-an enterprise that caters almost exclusively to Men-has participated in a BIG way in the Breast Cancer struggle, by having its key players and coaches wear pink, the official color of the movement. Now don’t get me wrong, I have sisters and I care about Women so I don’t necessarily see a problem with this in theory.
However, it has been proven that Prostate Cancer kills at least as many Men a year as Breast Cancer kills Women, if not considerably moreso-yet NONE of the major Sports enterprises/leagues has EVER done anything to support Prostate Cancer. Here in my hometown, local sportscaster Gary Papa died earlier this year from Prostate Cancer, and I’m pretty sure there are quite a few other Men who in some way is connected to the sports world who is or had struggled with the disease.
Question: what are the MRA community doing about this? Are there any public shows of demonstration? Awareness campaigns? A signed petition to the NFL and its sponsors? Any lobbying efforts on the part of Congress members? I mean, what?
Your response?
O
Lemme strike while the iron’s hot here…
Over the years, I’ve sat back and watched the Breast Cancer awareness movement grow, and I would get angry and mad that there wasn’t anything for Prostate Cancer. Then one day I had to admit, that the singlebiggest reason for that was, MEN DON’T DEEM IT AS IMPORTANT.
Period. Dot.
We can blame this and that til the cows come home, all it will do is cement the fellas as LOSERS. If we Men want Prostate Cancer awareness to be on a par with Breast Cancer, guess who’s job it is to make that happen?
The answer is only a mirror away.
The reason why there won’t likely ever to be anything coming close to things like Breast Cancer if not only due to social conditioning but EVOLUTIONARY REALITIES. Men by birth, are competitive, and especially so when it comes to Pussy. Millions of sperm fight for the right to unite with the egg, but only One can win. The rest, lose.
And die.
That’s the way it is, throughout life, fellas.
Now, sure, Western Civ has mitigated this harsh truth somewhat in a multitude of ways-but remember, American style Democracy and Capitalism works so well, not becaue it seeks to inhibit Human Nature, but quite to the contrary, it recognizes it for what it is. Even in the best country Humanity has ever seen, there will be winners, and losers-and more often than not, the vast majority of the latter, will be Males. This is because Men are wired for more variation accross the board than are Women-hence we get more geniuses, but we also get more dullards-and there is not a lot Democracy can do about that.
Game teaches a Man the harsh realities of Life, realities that, for the most part, Women simply do not have to face, at least not in the first half of their lives anyway. From a purely Evo POV, not getting laid means meeting an evolutionary end-and Nature will unceremoniously weed your genes out of existence. There will be no euology, no remembrances. Nature will exalt the winners; the losers are soon forgotten.
Thursday’s mention of the Promise Keeper movement was very interesting to me, since they basically came to national prominence around the same time as the Million Man March, led by Nation Of Islam leader Min. Louis Farrakhan did. Mind you, the MMM wasn’t a bid to lobby gov’t for redress of grievances or aid-it was an attempt to get BLACK MEN to get their act together.
So, nearly 15 years later, what has been the practical, realworld effect and result of the MMM? The answers depend greatly on who you talk to. One thing that anyone can clearly see though, is that there hasn’t been another MMM since.
There has been a Million Woman March; a Million Children’s March; and a Million Mom’s March. Simple question: what do all three of these marches have in common?
Answer: they were organized by WOMEN.
Men are NOT wired for the kinds of networking and cohesiveness needed to bring about mass awareness movements. If they were, we wouldn’t be discussing this topic, right now. We are by design, fiercely competitive, and at the core of that drive, is yes, sex.
Why do Men go into hock for college?
Why do Men work jobs that at the least don’t really like, and at worst hate?
Why do Men go into even moe debt to get that car, that suit, that this and that that?
We all know the answer. And no amount of “shaming” is gonna change it, because from birth, we are driven to compete for the best pussy we can get. That’s just the way it is.
There’s a reason why the MRA movement, on a whole (there are always exceptions-Glenn Sacks for example-but even there, he’s fighting an uphill battle for real) has and is floundering. And the reason is because, like the ladies who think there is a such thing as “Girl Game” these Men do not understand the nature of Creation, of Life, or Human Life, or Women or of Men. They are basically attempting to create a male version of the Women’s movement-a Fool’s Errand from the get go, because
MEN AREN’T WOMEN.
Let’s keep in mind, Women didn’t get their rights, freedoms and the like by themselves-MEN, and let’s be even more precse-ALPHA MEN-by that I mean, Men who are in position to make life or death decisions-granted these things to Women. On some level its a kind of Noblese Oblige, but you’re fooling yourself if you think pussy has nothing to do with it.
There’s a reason why even the very word “Loser” is virutally universally applied to MALES, never, ever to Women. The reason why that is, is very simple-a Man is a Loser if he can’t spread his seed. Meaning: getting a Woman, and preferrably a middling to hot one, to say YES.
The MRA’s goals are noble indeed, but as any Man who has even a modicum of understanding of Sports knows, no one ever won a game on the strength of their nobility. Valiant efforts barely amount to a footnote in the history books unless it has a “W” next to it.
In truth, andif anything, I’d say that the it is the MRA community that needs the Game community, and not the other way around-on any given weekend, worldwide, one can find clear and present evidence of PUA bootcamps and seminars, filled to the brim with the kins of Men MRAs need most to reach-younger guys at the prime of their lives. Moreover, the Game community imparts important information to these Men that not only helps them become successful with Women, but successful in LIFE period, regardless of the Four Sirens. As I’ve said before, I am not and will not be concerned, in the least with a false rape allegation. You know why? Because I know Women. I know they long to be seduced; that they want desperately to submit to the right kind of Man; and that they want to cum, hard. And if I do these things, believe you me, the last thing on her mind is getting Buyer’s Remorse and wanting to have me in chains. Because I know that for Women, while a dick is a dime a dozen, a Good Man is truly hard to find, especially in our time now.
I know this, because I have Game. And a powerful ally it is.
Holla back
The Obsidian
Obsidian:
you make a larger point about MRAs that is interesting. there is no activism for men’s rights, there is only groupifying on the internet engaging in intellectual masturbation.
while the idea is noble, it does nothing to change anything. as a blog operator on the fringes of this roissysphere or whatever you want to call it, i realize that besides a few friends and family, the people who read it are other blog operators and their commentors. we are a relatively small community that basically trade page views among each other.
the roissysphere – as well as the MRA-sphere – are closed communities. activism has to bring outside perspective and energy. sitting on the internet and pointing out society’s ails won’t do anything to fix the problem.
Now, I enjoy lamenting these ails on the internet, and I enjoy discussing them for purely academic reasons. I don’t have enough of an axe to grind to actually do anything about it though. If I felt compelled enough, if i considered myself an MRA, I’d hope I’d *actively* try something.
I don’t see that with MRAs. Either MRAs are just guys who want to have an excuse to use the Web, or they aren’t as good at activism as women. This doesn’t dilute the power of their message, it just limits its reach.
Obsidian,
Interesting point about prostate vs. breast cancer. I didn’t even know what prostate cancer was until my early 20s! That is how complete the propaganda has been.
On the point about Game seminars, I think the key difference is that Game appeals to ‘doers’. Men of results. Hence a man who is determined and results-oriented enough to learn Game will naturally become an entrepreneur and do seminars, videos, etc.
The MRA cause is noble, but they have no results to speak of whatsoever. Look at how defensive Harry got when I asked for evidence of actual results (which me, you, and Chuck would be *delighted* to see).
The MRA crowd cannot muster even tiny protests of 100 people in a major US city. They can produce no evidence of any results they have gotten in the legal system.
The MRA movement will finally gain headway when a results-oriented person (who will be from the Game community) takes charge. Things will happen quickly then.
I wouldn’t say that men cannot work together. We do, in building great companies, great militaries, and even great sports teams. But only a small minority of men are LEADERS. The MRA movement needs a leader. The Game community is full of leaders, as many of the best GamesMen are natural leaders to begin with.
Leadership is a form of Game. Macro Game.
I have explained here, …
http://www.angryharry.com/esNoMensGroups.htm
… what hugely powerful forces MRAs are up against.
Nevertheless, I could give you a list of achievements by MRAs – for example greater compensation for injured soldiers in the UK, a reduction in false rape allegations in the USA, even Google and Amazon now not disbarring MRA sites from their various programs – which they used to do – but I know that some of the emptyheads round here would simply say, “PROVE that MRAs had some impact on this.”
I’ve been round long enough to recognise emptyheads who are just trying to sound clever.
But I will repeat that men (or, rather, boys) like Fifth Horseman who seek to undermine the synergy between MRAs and Game followers are doing BOTH camps no good.
Guys like him are sheer poison – and a good example of the kind of problems that MRAs keep facing.
For most of the rest of you Seduction Artists and Gamers, I have a lot of respect for your points of view – and, as I said before, I am glad AND GRATEFUL that people like Roosh, Roissy etc are writing books and that others are writing blogs to help men understand women better.
I think that this kind of work is DESPERATELY needed, and that it will contribute HUGELY to the re-empowerment of men – far more so than will sites like mine.
I recognise this.
And you only have to look at the links on my front page to see that I am sincerely of this view.
But, for goodness sake, don’t let ignorant prats wander around causing trouble between us when BOTH camps have so very much in common, and BOTH camps have so much to gain by providing mutual support.
You say deals game with the harsh realities of life? In what way? Reminding me of what women don’t like about me? And your point is …?
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