Both Jack Goes Forth and Roosh have taken apart this blog posting in which a couple of bitter thirty-something harridans castigate same-aged guys who have the gall to date women who don’t have wrinkles, cellulite, or massive chips on their shoulders. Every single cliche that women spout when contemplating this harsh reality is on full display in that post. Men who date younger women are immature? Check. They don’t want to grow up? Check. They’re afraid of commitment? Check. They’re intimidated/afraid/can’t handle women their own age? Check. You could make a version of Fembot Bingo based on women’s responses on this issue.
Allow me to elucidate to you tabby-stroking old crones why men who can seduce young women don’t hesitate to do so:
- They’re better looking. We men are visual creatures – what we see determines how turned on we get. Our pocket rockets get forced out of their skin silos by youth and beauty – and the peak of a woman’s beauty is between ages 18 and 24. The decline of a lady’s looks begins at 25 and accelerates at 30, and is worsened by poor exercise and eating habits. By 35, most women are somewhere between barely passable to pathetic on the looks meter. They could soften the aging process by cutting out the carbs and lifting weights, but most of them don’t bother, and even hot thirty-somethings were hotter when they were young. Men may lie, but the dick doesn’t, and the average dick gets harder looking at teens and twenty-somethings then your wrinkled old ass.
- They’re classier. Modern America is the only place in the world where people become more boorish and less refined as they age, and the women are the worst in this regard. Tip, ladies; merely having lived for three decades isn’t enough to make you a sophisticated person. You have to have done interesting things in that time, and no, working your way up the career ladder doesn’t count. Another tip; abandoning basic manners such as not burping loudly in public (I’ve had older women do this to me in bars) does not endear you to us.
- They’re purer and nicer. Your average single 30-year old chick has had more cock than a rooster farm, and unless the young lady in question is a clinical nymphomanic, there’s no way she’s had that many men ripping up her vagina with their meaty battering rams. Her love-cave is tighter, juicier, and isn’t crawling with a hundred infections and diseases. And even if the thirty-something isn’t a guy-juggling, dick-hopping, sperm-swishing slag, her single status is a testament to her inability to stay in a relationship for very long. An 18-year old co-ed hasn’t been on this black earth long enough to have her heart broken a million times by a million different men, so she doesn’t have the fog of cynicism clouding her judgment. In contrast, the single older women I know not only resent men, they don’t even bother to hide it. The linked blog post is a shining example of this – why the hell would a man want to date a woman who holds him in such contempt?
And it isn’t just older fellas who have a predilection for pretty young women. Even on college campuses, where everyone is in the bloom of youth, the guys prefer to stick it in the innocent young freshmen – which irks the juniors and seniors to no end. Men of all ages like their women young, ripe, and tender, as Leonard Cohen stated in The Energy of Slaves:
the 15-year old girls
I wanted when I was 15
I have them now
it is very pleasant
it is not too late
I advise you all
to become rich and famous
Of course, you don’t need to be a rock star to bang ladies younger then yourself – you just need game.
So, you unhappy old hags who are consigned to shopping for Friskies at the supermarket while the male peers you wish wanted you are nailing chicks ten years younger than you or more – tough luck. They don’t find you attractive, and your shitty attitudes towards them aren’t helping. I’m a young guy, but you can bet your last shekel that when I hit “UMOT” age, I won’t be looking to my flabby, used up lady compadres for anything other than an one-night stand – because, let’s face it, you old broads are easier than hitting the power switch on my PS2.
{ 60 comments… read them below or add one }
You couldn’t get laid if your gene pool depended on it. Which, fortunately for the rest of the world, it does.
Sparky,
Did you think of that comment all by yourself?! I think you’re a woman, since you’re using a variation of the ‘you can’t get laid’ canard.
FB,
You had a couple of good lines I’m going to steal. Tabby stroking old crones is funny; I cracked up when I read that! I also love the one about pocket rockets leaving their skin silos-good one! Have a good night now…
MarkyMark
Note, however, that the teenage girls who are willing to be seduced often present themselves as having had fewer than a dozen sex partners, but have actually had dozens of sex partners.
So while teenaged girls may appear to present a smaller risk for venereal disease, that is not necessarily true.
Unfortunately, sexual liberalism is a growth strategy only for the various microbes – spirochetes, HIviruses, etc.
Modern America is the only place in the world where people become more boorish and less refined as they age, and the women are the worst in this regard.
this is likely true except for my personal favorite subset of the American population: upper middle class white Southern women. they become much more refined and hospitable mainly because there’s such a worthy archetype to live up to (The Southern Belle).
LOL! Exactly! I love how the men try to paint themselves as brave white knights in one post and then admit to being slobbering pedophiles in the next.
…On top of that they wonder why women don’t even bother with them…or only date men with money and a good career (like you say we do).
If I was going to marry some man I damn sure would make sure he had some money. That way if he ever turned out to be nothing but another jerk I’d just divorce him and get the alimony.
See? Works out great for everyone (except the young lady of course…but if she’d let some gross old coot get that close to her…*shrugs*)
“I love how the men try to paint themselves as brave white knights in one post and then admit to being slobbering pedophiles in the next.”
Men who lust after teenagers are EPHEBOPHILES, not pedophiles. Get a dictionary. And ephebophilia is perfectly normal, because teenagers are sexually mature.
No, men who lust after teenagers are mentally and emotionally stunted. They are damaged goods. They are inadequate in every way and can only find a false sense of security in themselves by preying on others.
Pedophilia is used colloquially to refer to both prepubescent children as well as underage teenagers. It is not incorrect to use the word in this way. Often Ephebophilia is used to refer young males rather than females. Why don’t YOU get a dictionary.
Funny thing is how these same bitter cougars applaud other cougars for hooking up with young boy toys…
On the VD observation someone made above.
The only 19 year old girl I’ve ever dated had been with more men, I later discovered, that most 30 year olds.
This does seem on par for younger women who tend to date men in their 30s. They do seem to be a bit more precocious than their peers, but they also seem to get around … to a greater degree.
Just a note.
Know why cougars can get laid with younger guys?
a) women always can get laid, even if they are a bit worn.
b) those said younger guys can’t get laid with the younger chicks, because those younger chicks prefer us older men.
In the end, we are winning. The payback’s a bitch, bitches. And your weak envious rage is just hilarious. It’s so fucking hilarious I end up feeling better about myself. My self esteem grows again, which gets me more self-assurance to get again more young pussy.
Don’t worry, “girls”, at least you live longer than us.
So, men who lust after chicks like Vanessa Hudgens are damaged goods? At the tender young age of 19 she’s just such a **child** ya know?
It’s not the fact that she’s 19 that’s the problem. It’s the fact that you’re way older (I’m guess 25 and up). I’m not a cougar (And I’m a lesbian) I’m not interested in anyone more then 5 years younger then me and prefer older women myself. Why? Because I need someone who’s at my level intellectually. If a guy is 35 and he’s with a 19 year old I guess that means she’s on his intellectual level?
Damaged goods? Maybe. I mean why would anyone want a 35 year old with the intellectual capacity of a 19 year old?
Yeah, because when I look at a young fertile girl with tight, cellulite-free skin the first thing I think is “Wow, I’d like to have a conversation with her!”
Men biologically speaking are drawn toward Youth and Fertility. Thanks to Feminism and especially No Fault Divorce along with the Family Court Legal Extortion racket. Men are free from marriage and commitment. So Men instead of seeking a life long partner. Are becoming Players and Pick Up Artists. The bitter old Hags are angry. Men are not behaving in Female approved ways.
Many young Women are after Mr. Right Now or Mr. Excitement the Bad Boy. And have no interest in a stable, loving, decent Man. Fortunately there are many reasonable, realistic and agreeable Foreign Women who are. Feminists desperate to hold onto Men foisted IMBRA on the US male populace. A tacit admission that Feminized Women are unwanted except for Sport Sex.
Men growing up in this culture know the score and are not willing to put their head in the noose. So Women insult and whine. And try to shame us into behaving. It is falling on deaf ears. Men are doing what Women have always done. What is in our best interests not yours. We have wised up.
Sorry a Lesbian lecturing Men on proper decorum with Women. Is like talking to a Taxidermist about proper care for your Pet.
There is nothing “biological” to explain men being attracted to younger women. Being attracted to women, “yes”, but there’s nothing in your genes that says “under 21 only”. That’s just excuses men use try to use to reason away their bad behavior. Everything guys want to do is “natural” and what they don’t want to do is “unnatural”.
But there’s nothing biological about some geezer ejaculating the dust of his mummification over a young hottie. Some old guy hit on me today in fact! The guy looked 3 times my age was seriously trying to kick game. YECK! And no I’m not into cougars either. I dated one that was over 20 years older then me once. And yes, as I think is protocol with straight cougars, she paid for and handled everything. She was a nice lady, very centered and respectful, treated me like a little princess. I rather liked it. but it’s a little too much for me to date someone with that big an age difference.
The whole thing between men/women is a bullshit exchange but I say for the most part it’s fair trade. You just want sex, they just want your money. Why would you complain about a woman divorcing you and taking half your money when you think it’s okay to date women a lot younger then you. Why would a young woman want you if it weren’t for your money? Hate to sound like your dream girl but “Er-DUH!..I mean Srsly!”
Sorry but no 19 year old is dreaming about greying hair, beer bellies and old saggy nut sacks. Hate to be the one to give you a reality check but some of you seem to be in need of one. Stop acting as if you deserve more then what you put in.
And your example was strange, why would you automatically assume a Taxidermist doesn’t know anything about pet care? A Taxidermist stuffs dead animals, not kill them. There’s no real connection there.
Thanks for letting all of us in on your incomparable knowledge of heterosexual relationships. If there’s anyone who knows about the dynamics of heterosexual gender interaction, it’s bitter sexually abused lesbians.
And thanks for letting me know that you have no response to what I said other then to depend on more of your childish fantasies. Heterosexual gender interaction is the cultural norm, in my face/ears/eyes whether I like it or not, what’s NOT to know?
And clearly you don’t know anything about heterosexual gender interaction either because girls don’t like you.
And I’m not bitter. I love women and could get laid whenever I wanted to (if that’s what I wanted…which it isn’t). Yeah, i’m only a woman, who’s surrounded by women, date women and has sex with them. You sound DEFINATELY by pass anything I say and listen to men who haven’t seen pussy since they spat out of one. They are the ones who know about women since you build up a terribly good knowledge about them from beying rejected by them constantly. LOL!
No one said anything about sexual abuse but it’s good to know you’ve got that on your mind…I will thank you for your emotional response. Good to know that it really isn’t women who do that :)
Oh, and you don’t know jack about taxidermy either…
Score!
mike-1
retarded feminist cuntmuncher-0
“I’m not interested in anyone more then 5 years younger then me and prefer older women myself.”
“I dated one that was over 20 years older then me once. And yes, as I think is protocol with straight cougars, she paid for and handled everything. She was a nice lady, very centered and respectful, treated me like a little princess.”
Hmmm. Sounds almost like you’re excusing a female “pedophile” while denouncing men for doing the same thing. Why doesn’t that surprise me?
“Sorry but no 19 year old is dreaming about greying hair, beer bellies and old saggy nut sacks.”
But apparently they ARE interested in greying hair, old saggy titties, and dry,dusty, worn out vaginas. At least,if we are to take your statements at face value.
“And I’m not bitter. I love women and could get laid whenever I wanted to (if that’s what I wanted…which it isn’t).”
Hilarious. God, you women are narcissistic. He meant bitter about men, you dumb cunt.
I’m curious about one thing though, if you aren’t trying to get laid why do you pursue women? For their stimulating conversations about what they read in this morning’s tabloid or which celebrities are currently fucking?
Are you looking for Mrs. Right to grow old with? Has anyone ever seen an 80 year old lesbian couple? Hate to break it to you,but women are fucking nuts,you’re living in a dream world,sugartits.
Now fuck off back to your femdom and cuckoldry fantasies,men are talking here.
“No one said anything about sexual abuse”
Didn’t you say that you’re a lesbian?
“Hmmm. Sounds almost like you’re excusing a female “pedophile†while denouncing men for doing the same thing. Why doesn’t that surprise me?”
I was 26 when I dated this woman and she was 39. I’m not sure what country you’re in but in the US dating someone 26 even when your 20+ years older isn’t pedophilia.
“But apparently they ARE interested in greying hair, old saggy titties, and dry,dusty, worn out vaginas. At least,if we are to take your statements at face value.”
Sorry if the truth about old geezers being repulsive to young girls (hell, everyone) doesn’t make you happy. See response above for further details.
“Hilarious. God, you women are narcissistic. He meant bitter about men, you dumb cunt.”
Narcissistic? Maybe. But then you must be a dumb dick. I’m a lesbian, why would I give two shits about men? Every time you guys say or do something stupid I just laugh and pity the straight women.
“I’m curious about one thing though, if you aren’t trying to get laid why do you pursue women? For their stimulating conversations about what they read in this morning’s tabloid or which celebrities are currently fucking?”
I pursue women because I love relationships/connections with women. There’s an intensity in lesbian relationships that isn’t found anywhere else and I get high off of it. The women I date tend to be very fascinating and YES I do love their stimulating conversations about whatever. I don’t date women who are celebrity obsessed or bubble heads. I’ve never met a lesbian with a boob job or botox body parts. Only men like vapid holes, so (some) straight women act this way. We happily leave those kinds of girls for you men to play with. With the exception of this Jewish ex-cheerleader I almost had a lesbian 4 way with you won’t find these kinds of women in my history at all.
And actually, I don’t pursue women…I’m too shy to go after the women I really want. :( I flirt with them only when they make it extremely clear they are into me. I tend to get pursued by more aggressive females. But then I have to date/fuck whatever comes my way which sometimes is a pot of gold/sometimes isn’t. That’s not good, a little boldness will help me stop being timid every time I see a girl I’m interested in…hence my original interest in the PUA forums. But I’m no misogynist, I know there are great women out there. I’ve had great relationships with women, yeah their crazy but I can deal with woman crazy. I can’t deal with man crazy.
“Are you looking for Mrs. Right to grow old with?”
Definitely! Even I know there‘s nothing better then a good woman!
“Has anyone ever seen an 80 year old lesbian couple?”
I’ve seen some old lesbian couples. I don’t know if they were 80 but I’ve seen great lesbian couples that have been together for 30-40 years before (I live in NY after all, I’ve seen a lot of great things!). In fact gay relationships are often more cohesive and stronger then straight ones
http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2008/01/14/Gay-couples-an-example-to-straight-couples/UPI-68831200357983/
“Hate to break it to you,but women are fucking nuts,you’re living in a dream world,sugartits.”
Are you 80? Who the hell calls anyone sugar tits that’s under like 65. I know you think by being condescending your offended me or something. But like I said, you’re straight women’s problem : ) Furthermore, I have had great relationships with women. One that I myself messed up (or had a huge part in messing up), which I own up too. A little self analysis and cutting short the cry baby, pitty party might do some of you good too.
“Now fuck off back to your femdom and cuckoldry fantasies,men are talking here.”
I don’t see any men talking now. Just some immature mummies who got dissed by women all their lives and are stroking each other off, trying real hard to pretend the giant hairy man hand tugging their meat belongs to a 18 yr old girl.
Shesadandy,
Pardon me, but I really don’t see what the “debate” is here.
I don’t recall anyone here explicitly having a problem with lesbians, I certainly don’t. Moreover, given the nature of this forum, I am not entirely clear why you would want to participate.
The simple fact of the matter is that dating has greatly changed, and Men find themselves at a particular disadvantage, because of all the many social and legal/political changes that have come down the pike-changes, I might add, that make it possible for you to “exist” in this time. So, while I can certainly see why you would “flaunt” your success in the face of those you consider to be losers, if you take a step back from that and consider a bigger picture, you would see that not all Men hate on lesbians, or Women in general. Only that, like the guy in the flick 500 Days Of Summer, they would like to find a nice gal to settle down with. That’s become harder to do today because of the aforementioned changes.
Just a few thoughts.
The Obsidian
“So, while I can certainly see why you would “flaunt†your success in the face of those you consider to be losers, if you take a step back from that and consider a bigger picture, you would see that not all Men hate on lesbians, or Women in general.â€
“Flaunt†my success? How bizarre. I guess you mean the sex and such? But remember that emotional connections are to women what sex is to men (I’m guessing). I’ve had “successes†but don’t feel successful …yet. But if I am flaunting something it’s just the idea that you don’t have to be an asshole to get women. Lot of guys here sound like assholes and it seems like they try it on women, get rejected, which makes them into bigger assholes. So you know, maybe someone needs to give some of these guys a wake up call and show them that their chasing their own ass and it’s not working.
I know not all men hate lesbians, I have male friends (both homosexual and not). There’s never any competition between us. I don’t chase after straight women and they don’t chase after lesbians. Works great for both of us! I was having a fun burn match with some of the chaps on here, there is no debate. Perhaps what I said prior about men and pedophilia was up for discussion, but my sexuality sure as hell isn’t. It’s good that you aren’t a woman hater, you shouldn’t be, but you can’t be seriously telling me that most of the guys on here aren’t misogynist, this is like “misogyny a go-go†on the web. As many excuses as the guys can find for hating women is the same amount of excuses women can find for hating men. Although the lesbian side of me can laugh and just be glad I don’t have to deal with it, the female side still like “UGH!â€
I’m not even 30 yet but I don’t get how the dating scene has changed drastically. How? I’m not talking about marriage, I’m talking about dating. Maybe if you grew up in the 70’s with free love and all of that stuff but seems to me like dating is pretty much the same. What’s so different? And please don’t tell me about divorce and child support and all that stuff. I mean DATING as in DATING.
Shesadandy,
I don’t disagree with you that a misogynistic tone is quite apparent in Game/PUA oriented venues. What I would disagree with you, and perhaps others, is in how we choose to respond to this tonality. From what I can tell thus far, your stated goal of changing behaviors on those you find yourself at odds with isn’t working. I myself would like to see just a weebit more light to go along with the heat.
But, since you’ve made it quite clear where you’re coming from as a lesbian, you really don’t have any skin in the game, so to speak, wrt really helping guys out. Why should you? So it makes perfect sense. I, on the other hand, do have a vested interest that my brothers get some measure of happiness in one of the most important areas of their lives. Which explains why I don’t engage them in the say way that you do.
The world of dating has indeed changed. Simply put, women in our time don’t have to look for the same kinds of things their moms or grandmoms did, which were primarily economics/provider based. This has been covered here and elsehwere, notably Roissy in DC, many times, and I would urge you to check it out. But I’ll just say here that a lot of guys didn’t get the memo, that simply being a “nice guy’ w/a decent job, is no longer enough. The frustrations you’re seeing in the form of misogynistic rants here and elsewhere by some guys is the reactions to the realization that what they’ve been led to believe about these things all their lives are simply not true, or at least not as much, as they used to be.
Hence the rise of Game, a direct response to a greatly changed dating landscape. And, it works. Its not perfect, and there are pitfalls, to be sure-but for most guys, most of the time, it works. It is this information that the guys you rail against need, not more antangonizing by someone who by their own admission doesn’t have a dog in the fight to begin with.
So, while we’re on the same page wrt the problems, I’m not sure we are when it comes to our level of vested interests. That’s OK-it doesn’t have to be “equal”. But I am concerned about the realworld impact of your interactions w/these guys. Are you getting through to them? Are they having better lovelives as a result? I think to ask the questions, are to answer them.
Best wishes.
The Obsidian
she-daddy,
There is FAR more misandry in America today than misogyny. The media continuously depicts and anti-male message, and drums up a narrative about some victimized ‘single mom’, who in reality just engaged in irresponsible promiscuity without being an adult about the expected consequences of such.
On the other hand, the bogus ‘deadbeat dads’ campaign to create a caricature of men not paying for their kids is a total lie. More often than not, it is the man who wants to stay in a 2-parent household, while the woman selfishly chooses to leave (and ruin the kids lives in the process), simply because the disgustingly unfair court system enables her to do so.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. More men are avoiding marraige. Hence, birth rates are dropping in the West. Cultures far more patriarchal (i.e. Islam) have high birth rates, and will quickly outnumber and overrun the West.
I hope you know what happens to lesbians under Islam.
The weird thing is, the only society where you would even have a good life is the Western world, and is thus the only thing that stands between you and draconian treatment of lesbians. So if anything, you should be working hard to overturn the anti-male bias in the West today. If the men of the West stop defending you, what then?
There is another lesbian who calls herself the female misogynist. While some of what she writes is extreme, you could learn a thing or two about women from her :
http://malechauvinist.blogspot.com/
“Shesadandy,
I don’t disagree with you that a misogynistic tone is quite apparent in Game/PUA oriented venues. What I would disagree with you, and perhaps others, is in how we choose to respond to this tonality. From what I can tell thus far, your stated goal of changing behaviors on those you find yourself at odds with isn’t working.â€
“I myself would like to see just a weebit more light to go along with the heat.â€
Gorgeous phrasing.
“But, since you’ve made it quite clear where you’re coming from as a lesbian, you really don’t have any skin in the game, so to speak, wrt really helping guys out. Why should you? So it makes perfect sense. I, on the other hand, do have a vested interest that my brothers get some measure of happiness in one of the most important areas of their lives. Which explains why I don’t engage them in the say way that you do.”
Everybody wants happiness. Some women (like me) just don’t get why (some) men feel their happiness depends on getting women to appreciate/and fall in line with their desires which often does not mesh with their best interest. I’ve accepted that this is how men are. All men aren’t like this, I am aware of that. In fact I was in the military and was surrounded by some of the best men (and women) on earth. However, those men and even some of the bad ones will tell me that this is just how most men are. But I don’t really care about the why they are this way (especially since just about all the reasons are going to be “it’s wimmins fault”) but what tickles me is that they are TOTALLY surprised that women aren’t lining to take part in this. Really?!
I understand you’re helping guys out, but to women’s detriment? The women who are probably home now taking care of these mens children, balancing work/school/motherhood/life/whatever…in other words the women who are pretty much minding their own business in whatever fashion their life demands…and guys here are plotting on how to “destroy them†in a sense (though not really destroy them, they are just running around trying to manipulate women and get laid. Although awful this shouldn’t destroy a woman). This would be a plot I would be interested in sabotaging…if I felt sabotage was even necessary. It isn’t, these guys are pretty much digging their own holes and while I might point out this or that that they are doing wrong I’m confident any advice I have will be ignored or ridiculed. But I say it anyway so when the light bulb goes off in their head they’ll remember this sweet little dandy girl whispering “Told you soâ€. I don’t go after quick victories…I like the long drawn out realizations that come after many blows to the ego.
The fact is you make your own happiness. Some people are too lazy to do that so they blame everyone else for not being able to make them happy. Why stress yourself out for the hamster that runs around in his wheel when the door is wide open? Why not watch human psychology in action, and take some joy in this because the fact is the scapegoatist waste 3 times more time and energy trying to convince the people that they blame for their misery why the should care, only to feel the constant blow of finding out that they really don’t. The nonsense I hear spouted you have to WANT to believe, Plain and simple.
I see much of this as the male version of the whole “Rescue me” complex that we women supposedly have. They become misogynist because they want a woman to prove them wrong or “rescue them/change their mind” about what they want to believe. This is pretty much impossible though because :
A. Being a misogynist repels respectable women and although you’re all waiting for that “goddess” to come and take time out of her life to love you and prove you wrong, you’re dreaming. Women have very busy lives these days and rather then inspiring the angel in them to save you, your just going to prove to them feminist are right.
B. If you do find that “angel woman” you are always going to find contention with her and blame that on her “womaness”. All relationships have problems and no one, woman or man, is perfect. But once she doesn’t do something that pleases her husband he’s going to make it clear that he see’s her as a woman and inferior. You cannot fake all of this. And of course that will get old for her after a while and end you up in divorce court. So the circle of misogynist misery continues thusly…
“The world of dating has indeed changed. Simply put, women in our time don’t have to look for the same kinds of things their moms or grandmoms did, which were primarily economics/provider based. This has been covered here and elsehwere, notably Roissy in DC, many times, and I would urge you to check it out. But I’ll just say here that a lot of guys didn’t get the memo, that simply being a “nice guy’ w/a decent job, is no longer enough. The frustrations you’re seeing in the form of misogynistic rants here and elsewhere by some guys is the reactions to the realization that what they’ve been led to believe about these things all their lives are simply not true, or at least not as much, as they used to be.”
Thank you for explaining. This I can understand and agree with. The thing is we all were lead to believe a lot of bullshit as kids. I grew up with all the Disney stories about knights in shining armor and BS too. Women aren’t told the truth about men. Sure I understand not wanting to explain male sexuality to a 8 year old girl but you’d think the Disney stories would stop after age 18…they don’t. A lot of women assume that men are like us but just a little more interested in sex. Men are more then a “little more interested in sex”, sex is at the core of their nature. It also ascribes to a tune of subjugating/humiliating women for pleasure…yes, yes, not all men…bah but way to many for me. Furthermore many men feel guilt at these secret fantasies and then try to “degrade†women kind as a whole so that their fantasies aren’t as disturbing. I see a lot of that here.
Once she knows the truth a woman can accept that or not, but we aren’t even told the truth, so how can we make that decision? Some women do accept this, they like the humiliation/being some mans whore (so they say). But for those of us who this truth does not sit well with, it would have been nice if men could have been more honest about it. I would have came out of the closet as a lesbian a lot sooner and not given up a great relationship with a girl because I thought I could have found a man I could have been as compatible with/relate to as well (The way most men operate is on a totally different plain on what I want for a happy productive life for myself so that wasn‘t going to happen).
Even as a lesbian my sexuality has been based on the heterosexual male dynamics and that isn’t fair. But really there is no other dynamic to base female-on-female sexuality on. I don’t relate to women the way men do, nor am I attracted to a woman the same way a man is. I’m not even sure I am attracted to a woman the way a woman is attracted to a man. How does a heterosexual woman finds love with men? I don’t know. There’s no guide book or sex ed classes that help me figure this out. All I have is Ellen. Cute as a button she is, but she alone can’t help thousands of young women understand their sexuality.
I can understand that men have been lead astray to think money was the way into a woman’s heart. So was I for a certain amount of time! Hell, I remember when I had my first girlfriend all I could think about was how I wanted to buy her sneakers and jewelry. I thought that what you did for a woman to show your love. How else are you suppose to win a woman over? More of that male heterosexual practice trying to work it’s way into a lesbians mind, again. Money isn’t the way to a woman’s heart and never has been. Money is just used as a form of control. I want real love and not just constant ego stroking, so dangling money over someone’s head to make them do as I will doesn’t appeal to me. I’ve spent very little money on my past GF, I didn’t spend anything on my first and that’s the strongest relationship I ever had.
You think all these women married to wealthy men actually love their husbands? No, but with enough money you can control a lot of people and make them act like they love you. Even gay men have sugar daddies.
But then what is it that women like? How do you please a woman? Have you ever done a google search on “how to please a woman?” 90% of what you find will be sex related, the other 10% will be something about money. So you please a woman with sex and money? Wrong and wrong. All though both are temporary fixes (and it sure doesn’t hurt to know how to put it down in the bedroom. No matter what hell my last ex put me through I will always say the same thing when someone inquires about her “Man could she FUCK!“).
But if you look up “how to please a man”, you’ll find everything from how to help ease his mind mentally, to how to be emotionally supportive, to learn to cook, to shutting the hell up and stop talking to him. Apparently that would please men very much. How asinine. Would men appreciate it if one of the virtues women found in men was his ability to not annoying her with his talking?
“Hence the rise of Game, a direct response to a greatly changed dating landscape. And, it works. Its not perfect, and there are pitfalls, to be sure-but for most guys, most of the time, it works. It is this information that the guys you rail against need, not more antangonizing by someone who by their own admission doesn’t have a dog in the fight to begin with.”
How does it work? Does it just get you laid by random women when ever you want or does it lead to marriage and commitment? Even if it’s just constant sex how do the women feel about the men who do this to them? Remember my idea of success if probably a bit different then a males.
Also there are PUA forums out there that have “game” techniques that aren’t (overtly) misogynist. Granted, anytime you place women as prey and men as hunters there’s a disconnecting women from their humanity there. But there was one game forum I ran into recently and the men on there (tried) to be very anti-misogynist. If a man seemed to have misogynistic notions they would call him on it and ask him to change his attitude/language.
It’s not all guys, even single/game guys, who are misogynist.
“So, while we’re on the same page wrt the problems, I’m not sure we are when it comes to our level of vested interests. That’s OK-it doesn’t have to be “equalâ€. But I am concerned about the realworld impact of your interactions w/these guys. Are you getting through to them? Are they having better lovelives as a result? I think to ask the questions, are to answer them.”
Real world impact with these guys? My male friends and family members? Well those males offline seem to share a commonality with the men online. They don’t accept dating advice from women. I mean seriously, what could I (a lesbian who was raised by two women and is surrounded by women constantly) possibly know about women?
First of all they know if they ask me dating tips the first thing I’m going to do is tell them what their doing wrong. Men don’t want to hear what they’re doing wrong. Not from other men, but especially not from a woman. Even a dyke.
The second thing I’m going to do is describe women as if they are human beings and how to psychologically as well as emotionally understand them. This making women sound human route doesn’t seem to mesh well with men either so they will pass.
Third the women I like are different then the women most men seem to like. I’ve actually had male friends talk about setting me up on dates with women. HELL-to-tha-NO! Not only are they hoping I’m going to let them watch as I tongue down the “Britney Tiffany Alexis” but men have no idea what straight women want…Sorry, but honestly most don’t. So as a lesbian I might as well be from an alien race when it comes to understanding what I like.
Fourth, why exactly should I help men trick women into sex anyway? I don’t like to see women get hurt by men, nor am i going to encourage men to treat women as if they are sub human fuck toys. Being a lesbian doesn’t shield me from the bullshit or the misogyny. I just don’t have to deal with it in my relationships but there is a lot more to the world out there. If I have a male friend and his intentions are good well of course I’ll give him some advice. Same thing with my little bro. But I know what the intentions are of the guys on here are. In any case no matter what I said most of it would fall on def ears. Because of reasons 1-3 above and also the fact is even if I gave a step by step tutorial most men here wont beable to pull it off because everything doesn’t work for everybody.
I do thank you for the conversation The Obsidian. Nice to know someone is listening even though I’m sure most of this isn’t what you wanted to hear.
Shesadandy,
Thanks for the quite detailed reply! LOL that was quite a mouthful, and that’s saying a lot from me. There’s a number of things I wanted to respond to you about, but first, let me ask you please…
I would like very much for you to present to me and the rest of the forum what you would advise Men to do when it comes to courting Women. I’m all ears, the floor is yours. I think this will be a great chance to get a lesbian’s POV, as well as a kind of comparison study wrt your method/advice and Game.
What do you say?
The Obsidian
http://malechauvinist.blogspot.com/
A lesbian misogynist. I could wrap this up real quick and simply ask, why “she” is still a lesbian if women are so bad. There seems to be an abundance of single males here, the pickings look good (I don’t know, as good as any if you’re het). A man once told me that it’s every mans fantasy to turn a lesbian (on to/back to) men. He was a bit over board with that statement, but basically there is no shortage of men willing to introduce a lesbian into the wonderful world of cock.
It is not because of the “grace of men” that I am here. It is because straight women are willing to fuck men and put up with them that we are “allowed” to be lesbians. If 80% of straight women decided that cock wasn’t for them and they would all be nuns, spinsters, or lesbians all of us would be attacked, raped and probably killed. You know it, I know it, they are nodding their heads right now knowing it’s true as well. Lesbians are allowed to be because of straight women. The person who wrote that blog knows that and seems to be trying to encourage straight women into roles–she herself refuse to take–probably for her benefit and the perceived benefit of lesbian kind.
Anyone who would insult and degrade their own kind with such irrational accusations, uneducated perspectives (not to mention a limited knowledge of American history which a lot of Men’s Rights guys seem to have) and encourage men to abuse and use women for sex is hardly anyone I would call stable, to say the least. I also enjoy the post titled “Why I am a male chauvinistâ€, in which she blames her mommy and the mommies of boys who did *something* to her in high school for her need to believe that women were inferior. Oh also there was the string of bad relationships which is all the other women’s fault. She didn’t have the family life she wanted with her mom and for some reason she seems to think other women owe her that family. I don’t owe anyone anything. I don’t owe you a family just because your mommy didn’t hug you enough or whatever the situation was. And how the hell is it women’s fault that a bunch of boys *did something horrible* to her in high school? It’s the boys fault, not there mothers. I suppose boys raised in two parent households never raped anyone…uh huh…and we have so many light skinned African Americans because of magical pixies I suppose? Apparently rapist will rape whom or whatever is available to rape, regardless of their parents matrimonial status. But golly, let’s not try to make men take responsibility for their own actions. Blaming the women, that’s the more masculine way to do things.
And stop all this attacking of single mothers. I was raised by single mother…sort of…I was raised by two women without a father. My life isn’t ruined and neither is the lives of millions of other people raised without a father in the home. A woman divorcing a man is not “abandoning her familyâ€. If her husband isn’t treating her right she has every right to tell him to go fuck himself. Why do so many fathers only want to take care of the kids as long as the wives pussy is thrown into the deal? I got no sympathy for dead beat dads. The media blows it out of proportion? What is the statistic on men who don’t pay child support? It’s f’in high. How do you blow “f’in high†out of proportion?
There’s some great dads out there. No bullshit. And it seems like there are more men…at least in my community…who are getting off the sidelines when it comes to raising their kids. That’s great and yeah it should be acknowledged. But to hell with anyone stroking the balls of the men who aren’t living up to their responsibly. And those men should be calling themselves “fathers†to begin with.
I was raised by two women, and my mother wasn’t perfect but she did make sure I was a clean-healthy child. I went to private schools for most of my life, karate classes and ballet, summer camps and art schools. Things weren’t perfect but hell, I wasn’t molested/raped/drugged at a party/have a long string of boyfriends that I’ve fucked. None of that shit. I went to a high school full of boys, as well as college full of boys. I was in the military, in one of the few divisions that allowed women. Not to say that their wasn’t inappropriate behavior but at least when I went to high school, most of the boys weren‘t maniacal rapist. Granted boys today are even more vulgar and disgusting then they were when I was in school. I hear them on the busses and trains and all the little fucktards talk about is sex and “ho“ this and “bitch“ that (yeah, so we can throw that bullshit about more misandry being in the media. I don‘t see the little girls walking around talking about the boys like that). I sure don’t envy girls 8-18 nowadays, but still…. The female misogynist seems to zero in on her hate of women but she’s a bit of a man hater too, since even the little boys in school, to her, are all drooling rapist. At times, especially in college most of my friends were male. I would get drunk and fall asleep in their dorms, they would fall asleep on my bed with me using their necks as pillows. Never had any problems with them and most knew the difference between respectful and disrespectful behavior by this age. I’m not a lesbian because I don’t understand men and fear them. I do understand men and know that it’s not for me. I know what I am rejecting. As long as you don’t *date them* or get sexually involved with them, boys are pretty cool. As soon as they see you as some object to chase after that’s when the bullshit starts.
I have dated women who were attacked, raped, molested. I’m definitely not trying to make light of the “female misogynist†and the traumatic things that happened in her history. What I’m saying is that’s sad but don’t blame me for that shit. Place your blame where it belongs.
And what’s this jazz about Islam? On her blog she writes about people accusing her of being a Jew. And I chuckled because it’s funny but maybe she is a Jew, because anyone who grew up in a fine Christian household like mine knows the Christians will nuke the galaxy before they allow “Mystical Negros†to take over. Not to say it could NEVER happen, a lot can happen in 1000 years. 1000 years is about how long it will take. Muhammad will be sucking Jesus’ big black dick in no time. Don’t worry your pretty little head over that one.
shesadandy@
Before I reply to you, keep in mind I am not trying to flame you, but this is an honest entreaty for you to consider a few things. Because I think there are things you utterly do not see or notice, or if you do you are having difficulty understanding because of your background.
Have you read that book by a Lesbian who poses as a white middle class man for a year? Really read it. “Self-Made Man: One Woman’s Journey Into Manhood and Back” Here’s a review, http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/publish/article_1043.php
Honestly read it before coming to any other conclusions. I implore you. Why? Because it will really help you see things more clearly from their side.
Hell if you catch me in a good mood I may even BUY you a copy on Amazon and send it to an anonymous PO box of your choosing, in your city..
“The thing is we all were lead to believe a lot of bullshit as kids. I grew up with all the Disney stories about knights in shining armor and BS too. Women aren’t told the truth about men.”
Inversely in many ways Men are NOT told the truth about women and female sexuality. This produces bitterness once these truths are realized.
Since you are a woman you are focusing on the virtues of your gender and not the very real vices, and conversely in your screed about the icky horrible nature of male sexuality ignoring the virtues of male nature and focusing on our vices – a token “not all men” notwithstanding.
As disturbed as you were to discover the reality of the dark side of male sexuality (which does exist) many young men are equally, if not more, disturbed to discover the darker side of female sexuality.
More so because of the overwhelming cultural myth of the moral superiority and spiritual sublimity of women and female sexuality.
As some poor sensitive and very, very, nice young men who stumble on his darling angel taking a cock in two holes, from two different men, in his bed, discover.
Are you so dense not to get it?
Both men and women, boys and girls, are told lies about each other.
Both men and women, boys and girls, are told lies ABOUT THEMSELVES.
These lies blind each other both to our mutual virtues and vices.
And believe me, women have vices aplenty. And I have female friends, even a few lesbians, who would readily and honestly discuss them. Just as I fairly readily discuss male vices.
If I respect women for their virtues, and knowingly grant them some indulgence for their vices, I expect the same from them as a courtesy. Admit our virtues as men, and knowingly indulge our vices, and I shall admit yours as women. Actually I’m an unusually fair man, I’d admit them anyway irrespective of your returning the courtesy. Someone has to take a more noble stance, after all.
“Some women (like me) just don’t get why (some) men feel their happiness depends on getting women to appreciate/and fall in line with their desires which often does not mesh with their best interest.”
Speak for yourself, I desire for women what I believe to be in their best interests just as I desire for my male friends and myself what I believe to be in my best interests. Our mutual understandings of what may be in male, or female, best interests may vary.
What you don’t get is because you are misconstruing the issue in broad sweeping terms. Next, you are misconstruing exaggerated hyperbole and bitching on a blog with the full and nuanced spectrum of what some men really believe. I am not a white male, and while I’m a traditionalist about many things, I wouldn’t remotely call myself a conservative at this point in my life. But it is blindingly obvious to me that in the mating game, the contemporary sexual order has manifestly shafted and short changed young middle class white males. You may not see this because of your biases, as a black male looking from outside this is clear as day to me.
The young man who was raised in chivalry and to “white knight” for women as a reflexive habit, who becomes disillusioned with the whole thing, may go through a stage of spleen venting that can appear to be a quite toxic misogyny. Given the sublimated cultural wide misandry that is a real part of our culture, such can hardly be blamed.
You are making broad sweeping generalizations about the nature of male sexuality and positing a mutual antipathy and enmity that is simply socially engineered. You are part of the very problem that you want to solve. The tragedy is that you do not even see this.
The point these guys are after is not helping each other out to women’s detriment (though many women do the same to men’s detriment
And I say this as a Black man who has a real issue and problem with racism.
I contend that both men and women have cynically been engineered in our consumerist culture in ways that make it increasingly hard to relate to each other.
I contend that in doing this our ability to pair-bond – something we have successfully done for, like, 100,000 years has been compromised.
I contend that men and women are built, designed, to love each other and to need each other in a complementary way.
I contend that our present sexual order is subverting this.
As a lesbian this may not matter to you. But it does to the vast majority of heterosexual men and women who are struggling, struggling, to relate to each other on terms often biased by real lies about male and female nature alike.
Respectively.
Obsidian makes some points, and some of his past points sort of dovetail into what I’m going to say. But first, one other quibble. To reiterate this is not an attack. I think there are honestly things you are not considering.
“A. Being a misogynist repels respectable women and although you’re all waiting for that “goddess†to come an”
Dear god, as if Roissy was not manifest evidence that this statement is off the wall.
Part of my disillusionment as a “white knighting” Women’s Studies class taking, very respectful, young man full of guilt over the historical oppression of patriarchy was the nasty, nasty, tendency for many very feminist women I new to be drawn towards men who actually verged towards misogyny. I didn’t understand militant Wiccan girls shagging right wing Catholic misogynists. Not just the “jerks attract chicks” syndrome but aspects of a mindset much deeper than this :-) Perplexing to me back then. Not so much now.
If anything, I have seen a certain degree of Misogyny seeming to attract many “respectable” women. Of course you may arbitrarily define a respectable woman as one immune to the charms of outright misogynists, but this is arbitrary and can hardly be taken seriously.
Having taken years to sort our my head both from a reflexive worship of femininity, and on the other hand a descent into outright misogyny, and finally coming to a balance – learning to love women as they are, taught by some very fine women, and experience, to see the and myself increasingly clearly, I now realize the startling not so sublime truth.
The truth – Men and women both are equal part beast, part divine, part demon, and completely human. In our faults and virtues.
We can choose which side of ourselves we allow expression. But this presupposes coming to understand these sides. And in understanding them not living, or loving, blindly.
Comfortable middle to upper class North American lives isolate us from some of the more ugly aspects of human nature. This has been a factor chiefly of the last 3 generations, a blink in the eye of human history.
There are dark aspects of female sexuality and male sexuality, just as there are beautiful aspects of both. The liberal mistake is to assume only what is liberating and empowering about our sexualities. They remain blind as babes in the wood to the dark and disturbing aspects. The idea that social control of male and female sexualities is only pernicious and baneful is based on a superficial and shallow assessment. Woman and Man both have within their souls a cruelty that can be deep. And this is part of female and male nature, not something imposed by evil masculine patriarchs.
You continually bring up the physical and sexual harm men have done to many women. You utterly fail to acknowledge the physical protection and love many, many, men have also brought to their female loved ones. I argue this predominates. How many men have literally died, scarified their lives, to save, rescue, and protect womenfolk ? This is the silent story that your narrative utterly ignores? How many men have fought off rapists, robbers, murderers, gone to battle, hunted, toiled, and labored until their back vertebrae were ruptured and they were partially lame and prematurely aged men. In order to guarantee a secure and comfortable existence for womenfolk under their ken.
This is the narrative that is routinely ignored.
I increasingly believe that both the virtues and faults, of the past order are poorly understood both by the conservative defenders of its tradition, and the feminist rebels against that order who mostly did away with it, is something I increasingly recognize.
I believe that a good deal of the traditional order many feminists object to existed to protect the privileges of certain males. I think this is manifest.
I also believe that it can be argued that patriarchy also existed to maintain and protect a social order maximally conducive to human happiness – in a world without modern welfare states, over-reaching State entities serving as proxies for the family, and in which the threat of attack, disorder, and social dissolution was a constant reality.
I’m not prepared to make this argument with rigor, because I am sick with the flu, and have dumped too much text on this blog tonight anyway.
But I am putting it on the table.
You should justly consider the possibility that someone hailing from this perspective may see what is in men’s and women’s best interests remarkably differently than you would. And your dismissal of this without really engaging such a one’s ideas is intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.
And indeed from decade to decade, century to century, in most cultures to had a give and take, between more privilege allotted to woman, and more to man (Western history has had many eras of women’s movements, for example Elizabethan England, or the courtly love era of Eleanor of Aquitaine). Overall however almost the entirety of human history has been Patriarchal, with a few minor exceptions.
I contend that unless we both, men and women, clearly look at where we came from, how we got here, what our true natures are – in all its beauty and ugliness – and what is going on now, we will continue to increasingly create a social order in which Gender war destroys our ability to relate in the most fundamental ways males and females of every species are all but engineered to do.
And in a declining social and economic order, in which males feel no vested interests in defending women, gender war could become far more ugly than we can ever imagine.
The Sodini self destructive gone-amok reactions of certain beta males are NOT in the best interest of men or women. Just as race war, and class war, both will have effects on the social body too ugly to contemplate, so too will gender war. With the exception that the later will tear apart the last vestige of any idea of the family.
I think you display an inability to see, with compassion and empathy, the other side of the coin, and this is similar to the misogynist’s inability to see with empathy and compassion the stories of the women you’ve dated who were “attacked, raped, molested”.
I think you misinterpret the point of the relationship and dating advice these guys are discussing. Certainly some can be used to manipulate a woman, just as similar advice to women, on countless relationship blogs, or in an issue of Cosmo magazine, can be used to manipulate men. And certainly I object to this, and find it repellant. But when you strip away exaggerations and some spleen venting and griping, what you have left are discussions of simple social skills most women want men to have in wooing them.
Social skills increasingly fewer and fewer young men learn.
I am not defending wanton manipulative libertine pumping and dumping of women, I do not want anyone doing the same to my sisters. I do think that some bloggers exaggerate for effect to draw out reactions like yours to illustrate their very points, and that much of what they are saying is far more nuanced than a cartoonish appraisal may yield.
I read these blogs just as I read feminist and progressive ones, because I am interested in the directions our culture are going. And because a real interest of mine is how men and women are drifting apart, and increasingly mutually incapable of forming lasting and meaningful romantic erotic and marital connections with each other. What I see in the so-called “Roissysphere” simply reflects certain things occurring in dating culture here, ignoring or misunderstanding its roots is ill advised.
Just to let you know I did go and buy “Self-made man” after I read this post. I’d actually been meaning to get the book for a while now, keeps slipping my mind, but managed to find it for less then a dollar off ebay.
I am afraid it’s going to be 3 to 400 pages of dick sucking, but I have to admit the story is just too facinating to pass up. Like a porno with a remarkably good storyline. Plus, i heard the author is a very talented writer:
“I found the longer I was Ned, the more I became comfortable in him and less afraid … I didn’t really need much of a disguise. I just got better at having the male attitude,” she says. “People accept whatever reality you give them.”
This seems to confirm that notion. If she writes the rest of the book this well I’m in for a treat.
I’ll be back to answer the rest of the post soon. It’s time for bed.
The same goes for a 35-year old former party slut girls who whelped kids with multiple men, looking to men like me to support them and their illegitimate spawn. All the while ignoring those very same men in their late teens and 20′s. Nothing kills a man’s interest like seeing a woman with kids by other men, other than a woman who’s the primadonna from hell. Women like thugs, players and even killers, not normal men. As for women wanting a man for his money, that never changes. Once a gold digger, always a gold digger. As for the age thing, what makes you think a young guy wants to sleep with a 35-year old unless it’s for easy sex? Most women are homely as hell just as men are too. It’s not men who need a reality check, it’s women who are increasingly full of themselves. Thanks a lot ladies, you actually freed me from taking care of one or more of you!
Taras
I couldn’t agree more. The way women treated me since adolescence was not an aberration as many other men I’ve known for a long time made clear. There is a deep seated misandry in this society against men, and because of that many men, myself included do not have a high opinion of women in general here in the U.S. I was once naive enough to believe women were the fairer sex, but life has given me good reason to show them what an utterly cold look looks like numerous times. I only treat women like ladies when they act like them, otherwise I have no problem putting them in their place, which for me is out of my life. Western women are putting poison in their own well, and they are now enjoying the poisoned water they are now drinking.
ebay rox.
It is a fascinating read, to me.
And people do really adapt to whatever perception of reality one reflects, if one holds this frame with strength.
It is one of the most peculiar traits of humanity.. and a most interesting one.
WOOT! Ebay does rock. Only problem is I’m going to be waiting a bit for it to ship regular mail. Small price to pay for buying the book for about 4.25, shipping included.
“Obsidian makes some points, and some of his past points sort of dovetail into what I’m going to say. But first, one other quibble. To reiterate this is not an attack. I think there are honestly things you are not considering.
“A. Being a misogynist repels respectable women and although you’re all waiting for that “goddess†to come anâ€
Dear god, as if Roissy was not manifest evidence that this statement is off the wall.
Part of my disillusionment as a “white knighting†Women’s Studies class taking, very respectful, young man full of guilt over the historical oppression of patriarchy was the nasty, nasty, tendency for many very feminist women I new to be drawn towards men who actually verged towards misogyny. I didn’t understand militant Wiccan girls shagging right wing Catholic misogynists. Not just the “jerks attract chicks†syndrome but aspects of a mindset much deeper than this Perplexing to me back then. Not so much now.
If anything, I have seen a certain degree of Misogyny seeming to attract many “respectable†women. Of course you may arbitrarily define a respectable woman as one immune to the charms of outright misogynists, but this is arbitrary and can hardly be taken seriously.â€
Women love bad boys and men love bitches. It’s true, men absolutely love bitchy women. It’s one thing for a man to be raised properly and give all women respect, but it’s another thing for a woman to demand his respect and treat him like shit. Most of my heterosexual female friends have unenviable relationships with the men in their life. The men are disrespectful, self centered and callous. The ONLY one of my friends that has a boyfriend (baby daddy) that’s worth anything is, of course, the bitchiest one of the bunch. Yet, I have to admit her baby daddy is probably the best young father that I know of and he treats her like royalty. She can be an absolute monster, not in a nagging way but in an off the wall kind of way. So when I hear men go on and on with the “women want bad boys†spiel, I just roll my eyes because the fact is males are no better. Men like women who will step on their balls and laugh while they do it. I even dated a girl who worked as a dominatrix. So not only do men like abuse from women, some of them are willing to pay thousands of dollars for it!
In fact I have a copy of the book “Why men love bitches: From doormat to dream girl†by Sherry Argov. It is very true! I remember when I was at the book store buying it, this guy was all looking over my shoulders and when he read the cover he was all like “That’s not true!â€, I laughed and shook my head because, yes the fuck it is! I had one Heterosexual relationship that lasted a few years and not only did my ex’s whole attitude change when I put the bitch pants on, but If I was cursing him out real good he’d even get a hard on.
The fact is even I don’t want a “nice girlâ€, and if I was het I sure as hell wouldn’t want a “nice guyâ€. Nice doesn’t mean crap. Nice people can still be tools. Nice people lie, cheat and steal. Nice men have been known, from time to time, to butcher people up and keep their heads in the freezer. I’m sorry, nice is a “nice†quality to have but no one is going to fall passionately in love with “nicenessâ€. Unless they are the type of person who don’t get treated nice very often. The rest of us are pretty spoiled and it takes a little more.
“Having taken years to sort our my head both from a reflexive worship of femininity, and on the other hand a descent into outright misogyny, and finally coming to a balance – learning to love women as they are, taught by some very fine women, and experience, to see the and myself increasingly clearly, I now realize the startling not so sublime truth.
The truth – Men and women both are equal part beast, part divine, part demon, and completely human. In our faults and virtues.
We can choose which side of ourselves we allow expression. But this presupposes coming to understand these sides. And in understanding them not living, or loving, blindly.
Comfortable middle to upper class North American lives isolate us from some of the more ugly aspects of human nature. This has been a factor chiefly of the last 3 generations, a blink in the eye of human history.
There are dark aspects of female sexuality and male sexuality, just as there are beautiful aspects of both. The liberal mistake is to assume only what is liberating and empowering about our sexualities. They remain blind as babes in the wood to the dark and disturbing aspects. The idea that social control of male and female sexualities is only pernicious and baneful is based on a superficial and shallow assessment. Woman and Man both have within their souls a cruelty that can be deep. And this is part of female and male nature, not something imposed by evil masculine patriarchs.â€
But evil masculine patriarchs try to suppress certain aspects of women’s sexuality (what you say is darker female nature…I’m not sure about that. A woman who enjoys sex isn’t evil in my book) while it makes excuses for the male part. It also tries to slowly condition women over time to accept these truths while make female sexuality “outrageousâ€. For instance porn, which in and of itself I don’t have a problem with. I mean, the concept of porn doesn’t bother me, but the base fashion in which women are depicted and demean in most of them is an attempt to slowly groom women to accept that evil side of male sexuality. Simultaneously though the woman who is taking two cocks into her at once (which was your example of the evils of female sexuality) is bad. Why is that? A women who appears to enjoy sex is wrong but a man who not only enjoys it but enjoys degrading the woman (women) participating in the act is okay?
“You continually bring up the physical and sexual harm men have done to many women. You utterly fail to acknowledge the physical protection and love many, many, men have also brought to their female loved ones. I argue this predominates. How many men have literally died, scarified their lives, to save, rescue, and protect womenfolk ? This is the silent story that your narrative utterly ignores? How many men have fought off rapists, robbers, murderers, gone to battle, hunted, toiled, and labored until their back vertebrae were ruptured and they were partially lame and prematurely aged men. In order to guarantee a secure and comfortable existence for womenfolk under their ken.
This is the narrative that is routinely ignored.â€
Ignored? What’s ignored is the gravity of the crimes committed against women. It would be great if I could tell men to please stop raping and killing women, but it5 seems I can’t. What I have to do is stroke the balls of all of man kind and talk about how wonderful they are for the one man out of the hundred who saves a woman from a tragedy rather then commits it. Oh course on the reverse, whenever a male says anything negative about a woman there is no chorus of “Well what about all the good women have done?!?â€. That is what really gets ignored.
“I increasingly believe that both the virtues and faults, of the past order are poorly understood both by the conservative defenders of its tradition, and the feminist rebels against that order who mostly did away with it, is something I increasingly recognize.
I believe that a good deal of the traditional order many feminists object to existed to protect the privileges of certain males. I think this is manifest.
I also believe that it can be argued that patriarchy also existed to maintain and protect a social order maximally conducive to human happiness – “
Please don’t speak for me because there’s nothing about patriarchy that makes me happy. I can’t think of anything about being subordinate to another human being based on my gender that puts a smile on my face.
“in a world without modern welfare states, over-reaching State entities serving as proxies for the family, and in which the threat of attack, disorder, and social dissolution was a constant reality. “
If it wasn’t for welfare and other pacification techniques the poor would have slaughtered the wealthy a long time ago. Why do you think they seem to be coming out with MORE government programs. These of course are being funded mostly by the poor and middle class. No one bothers the extremely wealthy who made their money off the blood of the lower classes. If it wasn’t for these government programs we would have wised up a long time ago and rather then attacking each other we would have attacked the 1% of the hogs control MOST of the worlds money. This has little to do with patriarchy/matriarchy or whatever. The super wealthy could care less if they’re killing men with their work, or women with their work. The children they may spare, because they have to have future host that they can parasite off of.
“You should justly consider the possibility that someone hailing from this perspective may see what is in men’s and women’s best interests remarkably differently than you would. And your dismissal of this without really engaging such a one’s ideas is intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.â€
I’m not dismissing anything I haven’t heard before. Oh yes, men are going to tell me why I should submit to their command and do whatever they say. Yes, something about that just make me giggle. And if it sounds like I’m dismissing it, it’s only because I am.
“And indeed from decade to decade, century to century, in most cultures to had a give and take, between more privilege allotted to woman, and more to man (Western history has had many eras of women’s movements, for example Elizabethan England, or the courtly love era of Eleanor of Aquitaine). Overall however almost the entirety of human history has been Patriarchal, with a few minor exceptions.
I contend that unless we both, men and women, clearly look at where we came from, how we got here, what our true natures are – in all its beauty and ugliness – and what is going on now, we will continue to increasingly create a social order in which Gender war destroys our ability to relate in the most fundamental ways males and females of every species are all but engineered to do. “
The only reason we have a “gender war†now is because women are fighting back. Men have been killing off women (for various reasons, but let’s face facts, they almost all lead to misogyny) for a very long time now.
-One in three women worldwide has been beaten, coerced into sex, or abused in some other way, most often by someone she knows. One in four women were abused during pregnancy (Amnesty International; http://www.amnesty.org)
-In the UK, in 1999, 37% of female homicide victims were killed by their present or former partner, compared to 6% of men. This totalled 92 women – one every three days (www.homeoffice.gov.uk)
-Three out of four fatalities of war are women and children (Network for good) In the former Yugoslavia, 20,000 women and girls were raped during the first months of the war (Physicians for Human Rights)
-Between 200,000-300,000 women are trafficked to Europe every year (Human Rights Watch) Well over $7 billion a year is generated from sex-trade trafficking (Peace Women)
-Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury and death for women worldwide (Intervarsity press) Every day 6,000 girls undergo female circumcision (Amnesty; http://www.amnesty.org)
-2 million females are killed before or at birth simply because of their sex (www.indiafemalefoeticide.org)
-More than 60 million women are ‘missing’ from the world today as a result of sex-selective abortions and female infanticide (Amnesty; http://www.amnesty.org)
-50 million women are ‘missing’ from India (www.thp.org)
-In China, the 2000 census revealed the ratio of girls to boys is 100:199. The norm is 100:103 (chinadatacenter.org)
-Of 8,000 foetuses aborted in a Bombay clinic, 7999 were female (learningpartnership.org) Annually, 2 million girls worldwide are forced into marriage (secondsightresearch.tripod.com)
-5,000 women in the world are estimated as killed in ‘honour killings’ (Christian Science Monitor; http://www.csmonitor.com)
-Every year in India, 5000 brides are murdered or commit suicide because their marriage dowries are considered inadequate (www.learningpartnership.org)
-Every year, 2 million girls between the ages of five and 15 are coerced, abducted, sold or trafficked into the illegal sex market (International Humanitarian Campaign Against the Exploitation of Children; http://www.helpsavekids.org)
The war has been called on women a long time ago. We are only just beginning to wake up to it and realize that these aren’t all “A million and a half, tiny little incidents†all independent of themselves. This is world wide misogyny. And guess what? Most of it, the worst of it, is taking place in PATRIARCHIAL countries. The countries so many men in the west wish to emulate. So there’s good reason that when men say things like “Oh you women are so wicked, if you’d just be good and live under patriarchal rule your life would be so much happier, I DOUBT that. And I’m glad plenty of other women doubt that too.
“And in a declining social and economic order, in which males feel no vested interests in defending women, gender war could become far more ugly than we can ever imagine.
The Sodini self destructive gone-amok reactions of certain beta males are NOT in the best interest of men or women. Just as race war, and class war, both will have effects on the social body too ugly to contemplate, so too will gender war. With the exception that the later will tear apart the last vestige of any idea of the family.â€
As I say the war on women has been waged a long time ago. Who cares about George Sodini. He is one man who killed several women. In the hour it took for the local news to show the story on national television, 3-4 other women were killed by a husband/boyfriend in the U.S. alone. That same week a man killed his entire family, (ex wife, mother in law, teen daughter) because his wife wanted to finalize their divorce. And then there was the man who killed his entire family, including very young children, because he had lost his job. What bullshit, this George Sodini is, as if he’s the only masochist to ever go on a rampage killing women. He wasn’t even the only one to do it THAT DAY! He might have been the most pathetic, perhaps. I suppose that was why the media felt he was news worthy.
But here goes the males with the threats. “If you girls don’t start being nicer to us males we may just KILL YOUâ€. Then fuck it, kill us. Kill everyone of us, including your mothers, daughters, sisters, wives. Whatever. All I ask is that you find a way to do it in one big bang! Not this slow, painful, gendercide you guys have been doing for hundreds and thousands of years now. If we all die at once then you males wont beable to convince yourselves of what gentle, heroic creatures you are. With the slow gendercide you males have been able to convince yourselves of all sorts of goofy things because there are still us women walking around alive.
Also if you take us all out in one blow, the shock that your now going to have to learn to form romantic relationships with each other will be all the more lovely. I assume it’ll be like a world wide “Ozâ€. Us gals can watch everyday from heaven and hell, ‘m sure it will be terribly entertaining.
“I think you display an inability to see, with compassion and empathy, the other side of the coin, and this is similar to the misogynist’s inability to see with empathy and compassion the stories of the women you’ve dated who were “attacked, raped, molestedâ€.
I think you misinterpret the point of the relationship and dating advice these guys are discussing.â€
Oh really? They’re not just self gratifying forms of manipulation used.
“Certainly some can be used to manipulate a woman, just as similar advice to women, on countless relationship blogs, or in an issue of Cosmo magazine, can be used to manipulate men. And certainly I object to this, and find it repellant. But when you strip away exaggerations and some spleen venting and griping, what you have left are discussions of simple social skills most women want men to have in wooing them.â€
Oh no, not the whole “we’re just playing†excuse again. And please don’t speak for most women. Nothing I’ve read as faras dating tactics goes count as “social skillsâ€. Unless of course you would do the same thing to a man you’d like to be friend.
“Social skills increasingly fewer and fewer young men learn.
I am not defending wanton manipulative libertine pumping and dumping of women, I do not want anyone doing the same to my sisters. I do think that some bloggers exaggerate for effect to draw out reactions like yours to illustrate their very points, and that much of what they are saying is far more nuanced than a cartoonish appraisal may yield.â€
Ah more excuses for bad male behavior. Oh their just exaggerating, very similar to the, “it just a joke†I hear so often.
My reaction? You mean the “dismissal†you were talking about?
“And your dismissal of this without really engaging such a one’s ideas is intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.â€
Oh but it’s all just exaggerations right? It is for the most part funny and I do realize that these people are joking…themselves, not anyone else. Now perhaps you understand my “dismissive†attitude. Nothing said here by the males can or should be taken seriously.
Cause it really is all so silly…
Osidian-
If there is one book on the art of seduction that I have respect for and I can say is about 90-100% accurate it is the “Art of Seduction†by Robert Greene. Although the book and it’s techniques could be used for evil and just for seducing people into a trap and using it…the steps are so complex and time consuming that if you are willing to do all of this just for a one night stand then you almost deserve it for the work put forth.
How ever even though this book has a kind of underhanded subtext, like the 48 laws of power (which i also read and loved). This book is meant for big game hunters. People who want relationships or, people who play “the game†like a serious game. More like World of Warcraft as opposed to hungry, hungry, hippo…
One thing about the techniques of this book is that for the most part they have to kind of be inborn in you or things you truly believe in. If you read the message board for this book there are tons of people who will rave about the effectiveness of these techniques but most of them will say though “YEAH! I do that anyway and it is so true!â€
Furthermore not only do I do these things but these are a lot of things the first women I fell in love with did to me. I was honestly like “Did she read this book?â€. Because before I met her I was hetero…and now I’m not. THAT’S HOW GOOD THESE TECHNIQUES WORK!
First his advice on
1. Choose the right victim.
This is good advice but I hate how he phrases this. Not victim, just choose someone your into and will …well…be mentally compliant with you? Hmmm, I guess there is no nice way to say that, but really this is what we are all suppose to be doing anyway. It’s not just about choosing someone who’s pretty or who makes you laugh, you have to be able on the same page with how you think. This is probably why I can more easily fall in love with women then men. I know how women think, I know how to manipulate them if I want to because all I have to think about is what would work on *me*. However my best relationship was with a girl who was on the same place mentally as I was. She mind fucked me in ways I am STILL coming to grips with and I dished it out to her just the same!! It was awesome!! I hope I meet her again so we can do that…whatever it is…to each other for all of eternity!
And seeing as how my “victim†had much the same mind as I did she could manipulate me (and did, delicious!) just as easy. Fair is fair. That’s why it’s important also to find someone of good character who won’t use the gift for wrong (but then again in what capacity can it be right?)
2. Approach indirectly
Yes, this does work. Anyone whose every gave the appearance of trying to force themselves on me, male or female, will get a rejected. Instantly. Please don’t make yourself seem desperate. Anyone I’ve ever dated has given me the indirect approach. Guess what? Women are more like men then most men like to believe. We don’t like shit that comes too easy either.
3. Send mixed signals.
This does work but I can see a lot of guys looking like douches with this one. Luckily you don’t have to do all the steps to get this to work, certain ones like this one you may want to by pass unless your confident in your ability to pull it off.
4. Appear to be an object of desire.
This should be pretty obvious to everyone by now.
5. Create a need.
Although I really don’t like this suggestion and it goes against my integrity, there is some truth to line “a happy, satisfied person cannot be seducedâ€. But he suggest being the one to sew tension and discord into the mind of the object of your affection. How awful. Better to move on and find a less “happy†person then to make a happy person unhappy to full fill your needs. It doesn’t matter what a great seducer you are, I wouldn’t want someone doing it to me, and Karma’s real. My version of the rule? I stick around and wait till the discord finds itself into her mind/relationship. Then I pounce. Me little delicate hands are clean and there’s no dirt I have to worry about.
7. Enter their spirit.
You are never going to win a woman over unless you enter her spirit. As soon as you leave her spirit…yeah she’s probably gonna cheat or divorce you.
My interpretation of # 7
I would say though one of the things that’s become most important to me in my relationships is the lasting impression I leave on them. Keep your integrity at all cost. That works with both men and women. If someone does something bad to you, cheats on you, divorces you, whatever and you do something to get back at them, guess what? You loose. This might be a throw back from my religious upbringing but it does fucking work. I’ve been chased/stalked (all matters on perspective) by just about everyone I’ve ever broken up with and I always do the breaking up. I’ve been cheated on but never “dumpedâ€. No matter what though I’ve tried to keep my integrity intact (no one is perfect of course but most of us know right from wrong) and that is something that drives people INSANE.
Men and women test you! I’ve heard you men talk about shit test that women supposedly give, men do the same shit although you do have to react differently to them. You have to make sure you keep your integrity either way. If a woman shit test you be stern but patient, she’s going to see if your going to bail on her like everyone else. If you’re patient but let her know your disappointed with her and she knows better then (whatever she did) she’ll correct whatever it is and treat you like a god/ess.
With men you have to do the exact opposite. The patient and stern shit doesn’t work on men. When men shit test you you’ve got to run! Men shit test to see how desperate you are and how much of their bullshit you are going to take. If you take their shit patiently he’ll have 2x as more for you next time, guaranteed! RUN! He says something shitty to you, calls you a bitch, threatens you, BAIL. He flirts with a girl in front of you, ditch him. Where ever you are, just walk away. Don’t even say shit. Act like he’s chasing you with a machete or something. If he calls after you and chases you (and he probably will) fight him off but don’t talk and DON’T LISTEN. All he’s going to do is tell you that your over reacting, he’s joking, what’s wrong with you, you crazy or something? Don’t listen, just bail because if you stay and hear the bullshit and fall for it then you’ve failed the test.
Either way keep your integrity. He calls you a bitch, well you’re not a bitch. Ditch him in the street, and then shout back “being dumped, now that’s a bitch!â€.. Then when he calls you with all the bullshit REALLY act like a bitch. Shit test him! He’s totally going to fail and try to be “patient†with you because he knows he fucked up and that the “your crazy†route that men always take seems to make you only act crazier. Just like when he calls you a bitch it makes you bitchier. He’s falling into his own shit test, and he’s either going to try to be patient or he’s going to walk. If he walks, so what? He sounded like an asshole anyway, but 95% percent of the time he’s not going to walk. 95% of the time he’ll fail his own shit test!
If she cheats on you, fuck with her a little. Stop hanging with and tell her how much you “respect her new relationship and don’t want to cause any troubleâ€. Act as if you really, honestly and truly want her to be happy (this is easier if you actually DO want what’s best for her). If that means being with someone else then so be it, but tell her to stop calling you and inviting you over. That, after all, wouldn’t be fair to the new guy/girl, would it? She will go bat shit! Trust me. I did that to my ex and she ended up humiliating the other girl in front of me to try to get me back. I felt so bad for the other girl I made my gf go apologize. LOL. People are pretty much the same, men and women. That’s why I can’t do the whole submit to male authority bullcrap. Men aren’t any better or smarter then women, and the fact that they demand to be treated better…not actually acting in a fashion that would inspire us to treat them better…is just all the more reason to ignore that patriarchal garbage.
To shesdandy@
Ok, from the get go, you misinterpret a good deal of what I wrote, projected assumptions that were unwarranted, accused me of apologizing for behavior which I, frankly, never apologized for, and generally showed that you either didn’t really read what I wrote, or didn’t understand what I was getting at.
Also that you were indulging in template thinking, basically you have a mold in your mind, and you fit me into that mold and if I didn’t fit you squished me in there.
Which is really, really, unfair. But I expect it, because I write too freaking much and it’s hard to follow dense verbiage, and I in general people are used to their opinions and the easiest thing is to subject someone else’s strange opinions to a pre-set mold. In particular when their opinions echo, reflect, or seem to reflect opinions we dislike.
Reading and thinking on what you wrote something stuck to me. We are probably see things differently based on our experiences and our assumptions because of those experiences. I think much of what you are saying is based on your personal experiences of early heterosexual and later homosexual relationships, and experiences of your female friends, and family members. Our perceptions are molded by sympathy with experiences of friends and loved ones (and we are rarely objective when it comes to our friends) as well as how, where, when we were raised, and by whom we were raised.
We have very different relationship experiences not only due to our differences in sex, gender, and possibly race, but also locality, culture, current social and economic class, social and economic class of our birth and rearing, and early choices of friends and relationship partners.
Early experiences of sexuality and relationships mold us emotionally. Some make us, and some break us. Some find fulfillment others find bitterness. Witnessing the same in others we care about, all of this sticks with us and give us the tendency to make universal assumptions based on our relative experiences. It is good to question the universality of our assumptions and experiences when relating to others.
My reply was way to long, so I chopped it down. If you are interested in more of what I think, contact me privately. I don’t want to hijack this thread and litter up someone elses blog. I will confine myself here to where I think you grossly misread me and project your assumptions on me.
But first, will you agree to actually read what I am writing free of biases, without projecting what you THINK I mean based on what you THINK my background privileges and experiences are, and actually read what I am saying, and engage it on its own level, not on what you think I mean?
A classic example was your unwarranted assumption and misunderstanding – totally what I was saying about the dark side of female sexuality (keeping in mind I mentioned the dark side of male sexuality in the same breath) – you blithely read into my words something that was floating around in your head, not mine. I did not say that a woman’s enjoyment of her sexuality was evil or part of the darker nature of female sexuality, this is something that you cooked up and pinned on my forehead without warrant and by having that assumption in your mind, you ended up missing a bigger picture.
So, will you read what I write, and respond to it, on its own level and not projecting your assumptions of what you think I mean into it?
As I respond to the rest of what you wrote, please read this and give it some thought, try to avoid the tendency to read into what you THINK I am saying, and try to focus on what I am actually saying.
It is a matter of being open to communicating with someone else versus letting your prejudices and experiences rule your responses.
I’m not trying to be patronizing, I really, really, think you didn’t get my points. Where I failed to communicate properly, the fault is mine. Where you failed to listen, not just read but listen, to what I was communicating, the fault is yours.
I think that many of your assumptions about heterosexual relationships and male sexuality may be provincial and only reflect your experiences. That you might miss the big picture. Your bit about men loving bitches, for example. And your assumptions of what I meant regarding the dark side of female sexuality.
“Simultaneously though the woman who is taking two cocks into her at once (which was your example of the evils of female sexuality) is bad. Why is that? “
You know, I simply refuse to believe someone with your intelligence is really that dense. And you do seem pretty smart.
Again I think that you are not deeply reflecting on what I actually wrote, rather you are dissecting and picking things that you can read into, projecting on it from your personal experiences and biases, and thus missing the point.
IT WAS BAD BECAUSE SHE WAS FLAGRANTLY CHEATING ON HIM IN HIS BED (he paid the rent on the apartment and he really did buy the bed at IKEA) after promising faithfulness, she fucked two random dudes in a bed that he thought was consecrated by their love….. Now do you get it?
I’m not talking about her getting gangbanged, what I cared about was her breaking a friend’s heart by destroying, by that act, her trust in him.
Imagine this, if one of your female friends came home and discovered her partner in their bed with – say – two of her best friends, doing with them a host of naughty little things they never did in their own lovemaking, enjoying these two women in a way he never enjoyed her before, being enjoyed by these two women in ways perhaps that their relationship never allowed.
Would she not be hurt? Deeply? Could you not understand this?
It was a betrayal of a committed relationship, and a rather coarse betrayal at that. Anyone – man or woman – unable to reign in their primal urges to the degree that they are not flagrantly fucking multiple strangers in the bed of their committed relationship partner, is of low character.
Even if you can’t see the emotional betrayal, here he is, making love with her, unprotected, in an established relationship, meanwhile she’s bringing into a bed he chose to chare with her random guys from a club. She could easily catch something, and spread it to him. I know a guy now who has an STD because of his ever so loving wife’s sleeping, unprotected, with multiple men.
I trust that this is not difficult to understand.
It has nothing to do with a woman enjoying sex, it has to do with betrayal, men and women experience sexuality in different ways, for many men an emotional betrayal, falling in love with another guy, is less painful that having two other guys shove their cocks into his beloved while she eagerly basks in the pleasure. Just hours after she kissed him off to work with promises of her love.
Try to have some empathy and think about this and understand these points.
“But evil masculine patriarchs try to suppress certain aspects of women’s sexuality (what you say is darker female nature…I’m not sure about that. A woman who enjoys sex isn’t evil in my book) while it makes excuses for the male part. “
Your unexamined assumptions are spilling all over the place.
- As I see it, one aspect (there are man, I’m only dealing with one) of the dark side of both female and male sexuality revolves around cruelty, both the enjoying of actual inflicting cruelty – a certain sadism, and the willingness to inflict cruelty to obtain sexual ends, and also the willingness to endure cruelty for sexual reasons. There is also an aspect of border crossing, taboo breaking, but I won’t deal with this much.
There is a threshold over which the normal enjoyment of some degree of pain, some basic level of dominance or submission, spirals into something more intense, something involving extremes of cruelty, suffering, rape, and even murder. This manifests in both female and male sexuality, don’t quote dry stats at me, open your eyes wider than your circle and what you may have read and really, really, look around deeply.
With women one manifestation in an intense fascination and attraction to men who are far more than simply “bad boys.” More than this, in a real erotic attraction to very dangerous, and even evil, men. Or if they are lesbians, very dangerous, and evil, women. It happens, if you try to deny this, it will sound hollow and false.
True, some men are drawn to feme fatales, sometimes very unstable and dangerous women, but this is no where near the intense attraction and fascination many women experience with serial killers, criminals, men of great power and great violence.
Is it normal? No. I never said it was, this is a real part of female sexuality, The transgression of boundaries, that I believe is more intense in women than in men. Very few men I know fantasize about raping a woman. Sure, some do, but it’s not a common male fantasy. Many women on the other hand have rape fantasies.
Few men I know have ever fantasized about incest. More than one woman I know has admitted to incest fantasies with siblings or parents.
I believe that in males a physical side of sexual cruelty rules, while a psychological side very much present. In females a psychological side rules, with a physical side is very much present as well. Both the desire to inflict psychological or physical suffering one others, and the desire to have such suffering inflicted on oneself.
- You miss the point that I never made an excuse “for the male part” – I openly admitted there is a dark side of male sexuality, you ignored my admitting this. Obsidian’s pointed out on other threads such dark aspects of male sexuality, heck even Roissy on his blog has touched on the theme here and there.
- You make assumptions – assuming that when I referred to the darker side of female nature I was talking about women enjoying sex. I meant no such thing, frankly I think it is a delightful and beautiful and good thing that women are capable of enjoying sex, and so does every man I know. Maybe excepting one or two die hard misogynist.
But I also know women who think the male enjoyment of sexuality is evil and that the male cock is the source of all evil. If I do not take men with such misogynist opinions on woman’s pleasure seriously, then I sure as hell will not take women with such misandrist opinions on men’s pleasure seriously.
-You use the phrase “evil in my book”, which points to a bad assumption, I didn’t use the word evil in conjunction with female enjoyment of their sexuality and it makes me really wonder if you are really reading me clearly, I was speaking of darker aspects of both male and female sexuality. Sexuality is complex, you are not paying attention to it and are instead reading into me, projecting on me what you assume to be my beliefs.
Which means you really aren’t being fair and truly being open to an exchange at all.
- I did not say woman simply enjoying their sexuality reflects on their darker nature. It is natural for women to enjoy sex, this is why god gave them clittori and g-spots and made them multi-orgasmic. So try not to jump to unwarranted conclusions.
- You misunderstand that historically these “evil male patriarchs” may have also often suppressed certain aspects of male sexuality as well.
-You make a value judgments on the act of sexual suppression itself without seriously considering the possibility that it might be good, in some cases, to suppress some aspects of both male and female sexuality, while encouraging and cultivating others.
In a pre modern society, without welfare states, without contraception, without taking into consideration hygiene, social instability from jealousy, sexually motivated violence, the need to track lineage, inheritance, and other very practical bugbears.
I contend that a person of reasonable intelligence can step away from her assumptions of an ideal world, look at the world as it has been for, well, 40,000 or so years of human history, and figure out one or two good reasons why her ancestors may have deemed fit to suppress some aspects of male or female sexuality.
-What I say is darker nature is darker nature, I said noting about a woman enjoying sex being evil, this is YOUR projecting YOUR ideas here onto me, projecting your ideology, your cultural history, on someone who may very well be coming from a completely different angle.
You are an intelligent woman, so don’t be a lazy thinker.
In an age in which everyone assumes total hedonic sexual pleasure taking is an unrestricted good, anyone arguing that some aspects of human sexuality can be deeply disturbing, ambiguous, murky, and even quite negative, and probably should be suppressed won’t get a fair hearing. People will look at the word suppress and assume I am saying sex is evil, I am not saying anything of the sort.
Half of people automatically assume that I support suppressing sexuality entirely, or that I support snipping girls clittori off, or that I support foot binding, or any number of misogynistic practices in history. I do not, I am making a specific argument about specific principles.
Such are reactions based on a superficial reading of what I’m saying. Cultures have often suppressed differing aspects of male sexuality and female sexuality, at different times, for different reasons, whether the SPECIFIC instance is negative, or positive, is one matter. The general principle is another matter.
Keep in mind with whom you are discussing, I am not Ferdinand, or Obsidian, and vice versa they are not I. They as well are not interchangeable. Our views may coincide, or not. Just as it is conceivable that you and I may share some views, and differ in others. So while thinking over my points do not assume
Back to the original topic of Ferdinand’s post, there is something innate to the sexuality of many males that is strongly attracted to very young women. This is value neutral, it is, and very well may be hard wired into men. I sit not possible that there is a very good reason for this? If it is innate to male sexuality.
Men and women experience sexuality in many similar ways, but also in many different ways. And in both cases there is a wonderful and beautiful aspect of our mutual sexuality, and a disturbing, dark, and negative aspect.
As a lesbian it is possible and likely that you may have a skewed understanding of male sexuality based on only early experiences. I didn’t start to understand women until I started dating them and getting to know them on a non superficial level. There is a side of the opposite sex and gender that can only be understood by interacting with them on a deeper level.
There are sides of a woman, her hopes, dreams, fears, and yearnings, that a homosexual man would never understand though he would understand the same for men. There are sides of a man, his hopes, fears, and yearnings, that a lesbian woman would never understand though she would understand the same for women. So with this gulf in mind, it is best to approach each other with preconceived notions bottled.
As for the dating and relationship advice on these blogs, instead of stopping at just the aspects one dislikes, it may be wise to consider each idea in itself, on its own merits. There is on Roissy’s blog much that I consider bad advice, but also much that is good advice, just as in Robert Greene’s book you mentioned (which is a far more manipulative work than anything I’ve read on Ferdinand or Roissy) I mean, Greene is downright Machiavellian.
On the rest of your points email me in private if you want my response, I’m not sure that it is wise for me to dump more here.
Hope you enjoy the book,
K.
Lastly,
“As I say the war on women has been waged a long time ago. Who cares about George Sodini. He is one man who killed several women. In the hour it took for the local news to show the story on national television, 3-4 other women were killed by a husband/boyfriend in the U.S. alone.”
Who cares about George Sodini?
Well I will tell you who cares. The family of the women he killed. In case you feel like having some sympathy after that particularly thoughtless and callous statement that came out of your keyboard.
It is unwise to play rhetorical games with stats, without understanding them.
The most annoying tendency of arguing with people about such subjects is their predisposition to take out stats that they read in a pamphlet somewhere and slapping it down on the table, without taking the time to investigate those stats, to see if they were truthfully presented
I think that your numbers are wrong, but for sake of argument even if they are right you are giving a wrong impression, and leaving out another side of the story. Every hour 3-4 women are not literally killed by a male partner, you are averaging such numbers across the number of hours in a year. Whilst on some hours no one may have been killed, on other hours 9 women may have been killed, and of course on other hours 1 may have been killed. In turn, on one hour who knows, 3 men may have been killed by their girlfriends or wives, and on another hour a woman may have smothered her baby in post partum depression gone stinky.
You know this is true.
While I suspect the numbers you quoted are wrong, we can look for direct numbers, the FBI, and the Bureau of Justice. Either way the general principle stands. This “every hour such and such” type of rhetoric is essentially a form of lying.
There are subtle nuances it misses out, for example even though more wives and girlfriends are murdered than husbands and boyfriends, more sons and brothers are murdered, in the same data, than daughters and sisters (see below).
So gender isn’t always an advantage when it comes to getting whacked by someone you know and love…
YOU may honestly sincerely be rattling off numbers from something that you read, something that enraged you, made you feel a sense of unfairness and outrage, something that affected your heart and moved you, something angered you.
But a sincere lie is still a lie, even if we don’t mean to lie. The trouble with social arguments, about race, gender, sex, or gun control, or immigration, is that when people present stats as evidence their readers often assume that these figures by themselves actually tell us something.
Often, the only thing they tell us is exactly what the person arguing wants us to know. Most people in our country are very bad at math and know nothing about the science of statistics, hell most people can only read on a 6th grade level. There is a popular book about lying with statistics. I’ll try to dig up its title. It was written years ago and is pretty good.
Whenever you read or hear inflammatory stats there is another side to the story that most people neglect. It is possible to lie with stats, it happens often in the blogosphere. I won’t mention sites or people but the careful reader, if she gives a damn, can consider the matter herself.
People on the Left and Right both often lie with stats. I have read the most inane tripe on Left wing or progressive Websites, only to read EVEN MORE inane tripe on Conservative or right wing websites. Both sides indulge in it because the web is a battleground of ideas. All of us have ideas to sell, all of us feel our ideas are good and sound and better for people who adopt them, some of us have more ethics than others in our salesmanship.
You cannot deny without being an utter liar that there are not other sides of this story, I don’t think you are so self centered to deny male life is as valuable as female life. Well most murder victims are male. Full stop. Depending on the year, somewhere between 75-78%.
If you are a man you have a disproportionate larger probability of getting whacked.
2008 14,180 total known homicides in the USA according to the FBI (not sure of DOJ)
11,059 were Male
3,078 were Female
43 unknown (I assume the bodies were too decayed)
145 were boyfriends killed by girlfriends
492 were girlfriends killed by boyfriends
119 were husbands killed by wives
577 were wives killed by husbands.
98 were brothers killed by sisters – which really sucks
15 were sisters killed by brothers – which still sucks, but less.
In 2002
14,054 known murders
10,779 were male
3,251 were female
133 Husbands
601 Wives
You dig up the rest.
No one denies that a lot of men murder women in their lives.
FBI and Bureau of Justice numbers differ somewhat. You can speculate on possible reasons, either way you look at the hard numbers and proportions, and you realize that most victims of murder here are male, period.
While it is also true that men kill more intimate partners, but at the same time women also kill a lot of male partners, even though they don’t kill as many as males do. They still kill a buncha.
The number of intimate partner murders has declined in recent years, more steeply for men though. So a man in 1995 had a much higher chance of getting whacked by his woman than a man in 2009, while a woman today has a slightly lower chance as well than several years ago. For some reason either fewer women, in recent years, are whacking their intimate partners than back in the 90s, when they whacked far more, or they are getting better at concealing such murders. Which I suspect to be at least partially the case, given the large female fan base of CSI…
;-)
The FBI’s data in 1996 indicates there were 475 men killed by wives or girlfriends, 813 women were killed by husbands or boyfriends. 2009 figures show a significant decrease of male victims.
The bureau of Justice’s numbers, which seem more comprehensive than the FBI, paints a clear trend that fewer men AND women have been murdered by intimate partners, though the dropping rate of male victims was more dramatic than that of female victims.
The justice dept. also records the following trends:
“Between 1976 and 2005 — the number of white females killed by intimates rose in the mid-1980′s, then declined after 1993 reaching the lowest recorded in 2002.The number fluctuated slightly after 2002.”
” the number of intimate homicides for all other race and gender groups declined over the period; the number of black males killed by intimates dropped by 83%, white males by 61%, black females by 52%, and white females by 6%.”
Why exactly murders of black wives and girlfriends declined more rapidly than murders of white wives and girlfriends is beyond me. Either way, in both cases, such murders declined. There are additional racial factors that frankly puzzled me a bit, but since I really do not want touch off a race debate I won’t touch that further.
“About one third of female murder victims were killed by an intimate.”
So two thirds, still a majority, were killed by non intimates. Again, a smaller PORTION of male murder victims were killed by an intimate partner, but there are MORE male murder victims PERIOD than female by several tens of thousand.
So, in other words, it is massively more dangerous to be a man than a woman in this society period.
While the NUMBER of female victims of intimate murder is in decline (fewer women are killed today by a partner than in previous years) the PERCENTAGE of female intimate murder victims is increasing somewhat.
e.g. Fewer women are being murdered by their partners today, but out of the body of murder victims, there is an increase in the percentage of that body who are female intimate partners.
So you can EASILY see how both woman’s rights and mans rights groups can play with such data and make it argue whatever they like.
Men do have higher physical strength and greater body mass and more testosterone. Hence the darker aspects of male sexuality can be more painfully fatal, more often, than the darker aspects of female sexuality. On the other hand a lot of husbands and boyfriends are still murdered, not just in self defense. Premeditated, at times, or in rage, at other times. And again, in ALL cases these numbers just reflect solved cases.
“Boyfriends were more likely to be killed by knives than any other group of intimates.”
And I used to think my ex was joking when she mentioned that sometimes she was scared of what she could do around knives..
“The number of male and female intimate victims killed with guns has fallen. ”
Take that gun control fiends !
“Girlfriends were more likely to be killed by force than any other group of intimates.”
Boys are bigger and physically stronger than girls, well duh. Girls are better with sharp pointy things..
“Relationship of
victim to offender Gun Knife Blunt Force Other weapon
Husband 69 % 26 % 2 % 1 % 3 %
Wife 68 14 5 10 4
Boyfriend 45 47 3 3 3
Girlfriend 56 20 5 14 5 ”
So 47% of boyfriends and 26% of husbands get knifed to death by women
14% of wives and 20% of girlfriends get knifed to death by men
5% of wives and 5% of girlfriends are bludgeoned to death by men.
2% of husbands and 3% of boyfriends are bludgeoned to death by men.
Almost an equal percentage of murdered husbands and wives were respectively shot.
11% or so more girlfriends were shot than boyfriends.
This is only Bureau of Justice data, I don’t have time or energy to trawl for FBI data and it would be interesting to see what other data sources are out there.
Note well, lesbian and male homosexual numbers do not seem reflected in this, I’m not even sure if the government keeps track of this. Someone should do research into this..
On the side, given that homicide rates are lowering in general, it’s safer to be an American today, in spite of illegal immigration, strange chemicals in the food and water, and subliminal messages on the TeeVeee, fewer people are murdering each other today, than yesterday, and for this I am glad. For men, for women, and for all.
Ain’t it grand?
And with that I’m off to the gym.
Because of lesbians like you, I don’t give two shits about women at all. I see them as are competitors and enemies. Before you waste precious brainwaves and keystrokes, I am not some homosexual in the closet. My ex-wife turned out to be a lesbian among other things, so all I have to say to women is to buzz off! And lesbians can drop dead for all I care, because they’re not women at all as far as I’m concerned. Lesbians are wasted DNA that has irrecoverable defects in it, and as far as I’m concerned you’ll be doing the gene pool a favor by dying childless. And you know what, women have insulted me in any way a man can be insulted by flapping their pie holes, and I’ve answered them with a hearty belly laugh. You don’t see how you gave me and a lot of other men our laugh for the day at your expense.
Pretty late to the party but anyway….
They’re classier. Modern America is the only place in the world where people become more boorish and less refined as they age, and the women are the worst in this regard. Tip, ladies; merely having lived for three decades isn’t enough to make you a sophisticated person. You have to have done interesting things in that time, and no, working your way up the career ladder doesn’t count. Another tip; abandoning basic manners such as not burping loudly in public (I’ve had older women do this to me in bars) does not endear you to us.
SERIOULY?! Where do you live? From what I’ve seen, it’s the other way around and my God even Roissy believes that same thing. It looks like to me that this is based on nothing but personal experience. Are there some women like that you described, of course, but I don’t believe that they represent the majority. I guess it depends on where you live.
They’re purer and nicer. Your average single 30-year old chick has had more cock than a rooster farm, and unless the young lady in question is a clinical nymphomanic, there’s no way she’s had that many men ripping up her vagina with their meaty battering rams. Her love-cave is tighter, juicier, and isn’t crawling with a hundred infections and diseases. And even if the thirty-something isn’t a guy-juggling, dick-hopping, sperm-swishing slag, her single status is a testament to her inability to stay in a relationship for very long. An 18-year old co-ed hasn’t been on this black earth long enough to have her heart broken a million times by a million different men, so she doesn’t have the fog of cynicism clouding her judgment. In contrast, the single older women I know not only resent men, they don’t even bother to hide it. The linked blog post is a shining example of this – why the hell would a man want to date a woman who holds him in such contempt?
And what about single-30, 40, etc. men? How many women do you think the average man in that age group has sex with? Do you think a young woman should be as bothered about the prospect of his dick being disease-ridden as you are towards an older woman’s vagina being the same? Isn’t it true that one of the characteristics of game is being able to have multiple female partners?
The entirety of your third point is filled with so many exaggerations and in part (once again) based on personal experiences.
I admit, women don’t seem to be bothered about a guy’s past sexual history. In that case, I just don’t think it’s fair for a guy to be bothered about a woman’s sexual history. But hey, you’ll just sprout some evolutionary theory or whatever about males with many sexual partners being desirable to females, etc., etc.
Anyway, what do you considered old…30, 40? I mean seriously, based on your physical characteristics of “hags”, it seems like you’re talking about 60, 70 year olds? If you think 30, 40 year olds are old, then that’s just sad. Heck even 50 year olds aren’t that old. Not to mention that in today’s day and age, many 18 year olds aren’t as innocent and pure as you think.
Renee:
The unwritten implication in that paragraph that you missed was “SINGLE.” Single older women I’ve encountered everywhere in America are amazingly unclassy (see: cougars). The older broads I know of who still have manners are all married, and I don’t mate-poach as a rule.
Much fewer, due to the fact that alphas (20% of men) monopolize most of the women. STD statistics bear this out – go look them up. More women then men have STDs because women have more sex then men – with the same few guys.
If he’s an alpha, yes. Beta, no.
It’s made possible through game. That doesn’t mean the man in question HAS to or will.
Translation: I know you’re right but can’t bring myself to admit it, so I’m going to nitpick.
Fact: Women control the means of reproduction – the womb.
Fact: In order to reproduce, men must negotiate their seed into a woman’s womb.
Fact: The man is dependent on the woman’s good will in order to discern paternity.
Fact: If the woman secretly impregnates herself with another man’s seed, and then presents the resultant baby as the first man’s, she has committed fraud by ensuring the first man’s genes are not passed on.
Fact: Men instinctively avoid women who are likely to do that to them.
Now, a analogous question for you: Who is more likely to die from cirrhosis of the liver, an alcoholic or a teetotaler? To ask the question is to answer it.
Women love men who are loved by other women.
To paraphrase Seinfeld, a woman is old when the wrinkle makes its first appearance – which usually happens around 35 for white American women.
You’re a woman, so naturally you don’t understand. It’s not about what men think – it’s about what their dicks think, and the dicks gravitate towards beauty. Show me a good looking thirtysomething woman and I’ll show you a woman who looked better in her teens.
50 is the new 70.
But they still have tighter skin!
Thanks for the timely response.
If he’s an alpha, yes. Beta, no.
Does this apply to women as well, or are there no such things as alpha and beta women?
To paraphrase Seinfeld, a woman is old when the wrinkle makes its first appearance – which usually happens around 35 for white American women.
Well shoot, I guess the saying is true then, “black don’t crack” lol.
I’m in the midst of commenting on Spearhead, so I’ll read your response again and think about it some more :)
STD statistics bear this out – go look them up. More women then men have STDs because women have more sex then men – with the same few guys.
More women have STDs because it is easier for them to catch them. In monogamous relationships, an uninfected woman is twice as likely to catch herpes from her HSV positive partner than an uninfected man is to catch herpes from his HSV positive partner.
Renee:
A woman’s alphaness is determined by her looks. My estimations according to the 1-10 point scale of female beauty:
1-2: omega
3-6: beta
7-10: alpha
Thing is, unlike men, beta women tend to have the most sexual partners because they are “within reach” of both alpha and beta men. Alpha women have few partners because only alpha men can get with them, and omegas have few because only the most desperate men will touch them.
Thursday:
That too.
7-10: alpha
Generous.
I consider an alpha female as one that an average guy might actually daydream about for quite a while after seeing her. This puts the cutoff at 8 or 8.5.
Mystery actually does not assign a number any woman who is not at least a 6. It makes sense from a ‘why bother’ point of view.
When older men prioritize looks over anything else, they will go for much younger women. When younger men prioritize smarts, values, conversation, understanding, etc over looks, they will go for older women.
There is not dearth of younger men for older women or younger women for older men, so there’s no need to quarrell over this. But most people date or marry within a reasonable range of their own age.
It’s a free country. To each her/his own.
Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell:
You’ve got to be kidding me. The only reason younger guys go for cougars is because they’re easy lays.
Ferds,
TokyoJesusFist on the The Spearhead, instructing the others on what constitutes consent and what constitutes rape :
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/31/the-biological-context-of-sexuality-and-mating/#comment-7305
He managed to get banned, apparently.
DADT,
It is vastly easier and more natural for a 30+ man to get a woman 10 years younger, than it is for a 30+ woman to get a man 10 years younger.
That is the natural order, whether you approve or not. A claim that younger men who seek ‘conversation’ go for older women is absurd, and betrays a lack of real-world experience on your part.
The Fifth Horseman:
Read that whole sordid exchange. What a fucktard. I’ve preemptively banned him here.
Fact: Women control the means of reproduction – the womb.
Fact: In order to reproduce, men must negotiate their seed into a woman’s womb.
Fact: The man is dependent on the woman’s good will in order to discern paternity.
Fact: If the woman secretly impregnates herself with another man’s seed, and then presents the resultant baby as the first man’s, she has committed fraud by ensuring the first man’s genes are not passed on.
Fact: Men instinctively avoid women who are likely to do that to them.
So wait….a woman who has casual sex like any other guy is likely to secretly impregnate herself with another man’s seed? Did I miss something here? Do you mean that women who have casual sex are more at risk of getting pregnant and not knowing who the father is? But still, I would like to think that a good number of women do take percautions when having sex.
While I understand the evolutionary mindset behind your idea, logically, a woman having casual sex isn’t worse than a man having casual sex. At least to me.
A woman’s alphaness is determined by her looks.
Really, that’s it???
Renee:
Well, THAT took a while.
MORE likely. Sleeping around in the case of a woman is indicative of poor impulse control.
No, they’re more likely to intentionally impregnate themselves with one man’s seed and have another man raise the child thinking it’s his own. Also known as cuckoldry.
There’s nothing wrong with it in a pure evo-psych sense. But according to evo-psych, there’s nothing wrong with rape either. Both cuckoldry and rape are considered unacceptable in modern society for a reason.
Basically. There are other metrics, but they’re all dwarfed by the looks factor.
Yeah I post on other boards and blogs (lately the Spearhead), surf the net, etc. so I kind of forgotten about responding lol.
Sleeping around in the case of a woman is indicative of poor impulse control.
What about in a man’s case?
Renee:
It’s indicative of sexual desirability. Since 90-99% of men can’t get laid on command, and 90-99% of women can (those are rough guesstimates – give or take a few percentage points), a man who can sleep around has demonstrated himself to be attractive to a wide variety of women. And as we know, women want men who are wanted by other women.
Yes, it’s a double standard. No, it’s not going to go away. For more info, see my recent post “The double standard persists because women enable it” (actually a comment from another guy, but it makes salient points).
”””””While I understand the evolutionary mindset behind your idea, logically, a woman having casual sex isn’t worse than a man having casual sex. At least to me.””””””
Well yea it is when one of you will suffer the consequences of a pregnancy and one of you will get to have fun with a new baby.
The problem with SHESADANDY and some other bloggers is that thier comebacks are to long and weak and are not very convincing so it gets kinda boring after a while. I would suggest to the blog Admin to add a limit to the number of characters people are allowed to use when posting. It would make it more exiting to read and would force people to make smarter and more precise comebacks.
They’re just twat.
Get over it.
The problem with shesadandy is elaborate self-deception and delusion and the lame attempt to appear intelligent, when she clearly is marginal on a good day.
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