Filed under Men's Rights, Sexuality
The history of the men’s rights movement, according to Fedrz
A few days ago, Chuck, David Brandt, and I asked Fedrz to fill us in on the history of the men’s rights movement as he knew it. Here’s what he had to say:
Well, I don’t know if I am perhaps the best guy to give a complete history of the MRM. I have only been around online for about 5 or 6 years now. Got my start by spamming porno forums with my yahoo group
I was pretty low-class back then (not much has changed, eh?) For ancient history, you’d have to get Zed to talk of all his experiences, because he’s been around since before fire was invented. Ragnar as well has been around for a while, and is one of the original MGTOW guys. From what I understand from Zed, many of the “smarter” people in the MRM used to have to talk in sort of a “code” with eachother, and much of the more intellectual things were actually passed from man to man via e-mail rather than publicly on a forum.
I was around for perhaps a year or two before MGTOW made their debut, and it was sorely needed. I had pretty much abandoned the MRM already by that point – although, I am a bit of a hothead with a big mouth, so it is perhaps not fair to blame everything on others… lol, not everything.
It was not very intellectual, though. Making generalizations would get you the boot. Making even the slightest un-PC argument would get you the boot – unless you could back everything up with a “peer-reviewed study.” That was about the only way you could make any case that went against the general views of society. It was silly, actually. Kind of like asking a Jew to defend himself in a Nazi court, and only allowing him to use peer-reviewed arguments approved by a Nazi University. Of course, for every peer-reviewed study you could find supporting your argument, there were 25 more opposing your argument. Everybody would sit around pissing their pants, worrying about what people would think about us, so writing a few opinioned paragraphs on a forum would require quite a bit of effort, finding links and of course, an out had to be given several times during your spiel – ie. “Not all women are like that…” Mostly, I found MRM forums to mainly consist of people finding articles from the MSM and posting them on a forum, followed by a long string of PC one-liner comments such as “Good Article! Great Find!” or “Tsk, tsk, how misandric!” It was really about the only thing that would keep in good standing. Certainly asking questions like, “but why are things this way?” and trying to explore such notions, would get you into hotwater in a hurry.
Also, the MRM consisted of many people who didn’t want open criticism of feminism, because feminism represented “equality,” and that would make us look bad. Many of the more prominent people within the MRM were openly identifying themselves to be feminists, and actually defending the whole hate movement. “Not all feminists are like that. Some of us are equity feminists.”
So, as I remember the MRM when I first found it, MRA’s called themselves “egalitarians,” and what was politically correct to ask for was “our piece of the equality pie.” Basically, trying to show that men were victims too, asking for sympathy. That the sympathy never came, and we were obviously getting our asses handed to us time and time again, could never be properly examined, in my opinion.
Another feature that became evident time and time again, was that the women that showed up “to help” were a complete disaster. They would shut down any conversation they didn’t like, often by befriending forum members and then pitting one against the other. We had to walk on eggshells, and several times, a woman would get all emotional and threaten to leave and no longer support us… and then the Captain Save-a-ho’s would come out of the phone booth and chastise the evil bastard who upset everyone’s favourite woman.
Many women were there making sure we knew that “there were still good women out there – look at me! I treat my husband with respect, and love him to bits, and he is always happy with me.” In other words, “It’s sad that you’ve gotten kicked in the balls by the past 25 women you’ve met, but you are just picking the wrong women – don’t give up hope, and certainly don’t stop trying to find that tootsie roll in the big pile of turds that is society!”
Others would show up and and talk about their big tits, or what kind of panties they were wearing… tantalizing men to be their allies through their sexuality.
Others would convince men that nothing was worth doing unless all the women agreed… if the women didn’t agree, then we certainly would never be able to sell it to society. So, if a woman opposed you, that was that. Time to shut it Mr.
Another womanly feature in the MRM was Sorenstam Syndrome, where a woman who merely voiced support for men, and did a few minor things to support “the cause,” was automatically highlighted as a fierce warrior, far and above more valuable than the men who were doing much more. Nobody knew who the 5th place guy was, but we certainly knew the woman who was 95th out of 115 – and she was extremely valuable, and her voice would be given much more weight than it was worth.
Once the women showed up “to help,” you could pretty much set an egg-timer to watch the destruction that followed.
Like Angry Harry says, “Having a woman help with the MRM is like having a 5 year old help you put up wallpaper. No thanks!”
And, worst of all, everyone only hung out on these forums. It was totally impotent, and certainly things were not moving forward intellectually.
So, a few guys – like Zed and Ragnar, got together – they even travelled to meet eachother, and they discussed what could be done about the situation. One thing they apparently observed was that men were so pigheaded and stubborn, and undermined eachother so much, that it was like each Man was Going Their Own Way. And thus, the term MGTOW was born. It is left as “MGTOW” on purpose, so that it is unpronounceable – slicksters that they were!
MGTOW did not neccessarily mean “marriage strike” in the beginning, although it certainly had large elements within it that supported that. What I understood it more to mean was “Go your own way! Get off these restrictive forums! Start your own blog! Say what you want to say, and don’t give a shit about the rest!”
And, that’s how I entered into the fray with MGTOW.
We were just a few ragtag bloggers, and we were quite under-educated in many ways, coming out of the PCness that had been bashing us up the side of the head. There was quite a bit of anger in the beginning, and we were certainly not the nicest of people – we spent a lot of time telling people who didn’t like what we had to say to simply “fuck off!” Fred X called everyone a femcunt about 60 times in each article, and Eternal Bachelor was a good writer who skewered people left and right… and we all basically supported a free speech policy, even to our enemies… but… that also gave us free speech, and man did we use it to attack anyone so stupid to come and white knight us. There were a lot of pissed off guys out there!
But, what we did agree to was to link to eachother, and to support eachother. And we did. Anyone who started up a MGTOW blog instantly got a shout-out from us to the rest of the community, and recieved a link on the sidebar.
These “each man for himself” mode made a “free market of ideas.” Some bloggers made it, and others didn’t. But, the result was that our intellectual ability went through the roof (after we calmed down a bit). Many politically incorrect things started to be examined and researched. The whole notion of “equality” began to be examined, and so on. History began to get talked about sometimes, and politics questioned. We began to form our own “Studies of the Sexes.”
And then “Game” entered into the picture, and it supported many of the observations and arguments we had been making… namely, rather than asking for sympathy and begging for a few scraps from the table of equality, things began to come together in an explainable way of why things had developed the way they did, and how this whole sordid mess was created, and why so many of the earlier arguments were completely useless – such as demanding male equality in the home and family being a complete fantasy due to biological circumstances like hypergamy. If you had tried that argument before, you would have found yourself under quite a bit of attack for not being an “egalitarian.”
And, well… that’s the way I seen it develop since I’ve been involved. In my opinion, the two neccessary ingredients that were missing, have now been provided. The first was MGTOW turning men’s weakness of pigheadedness into a strength instead of a hindrance, and the second is the introduction of Game’s knowledge of Sexual Dynamics, which supported so many of our own ideas and observations.
In fact, I think we now have what is neccessary to create a serious body of intellectual work that will stand the test of time. Now we just have to keep building it… and we will… because we are men!
” … why so many of the earlier arguments were completely useless – such as demanding male equality in the home and family being a complete fantasy due to biological circumstances like hypergamy. ”
This is very important. There can be no equality in a marriage. The husband or the wife will dominate. Only the former is the basis for a lasting relationship. This ancient truth must be rediscovered and restated.
Nice write-up. From the description of how women wrecked the old forums, it seems like a precursor to what happened when LR made her presence known on Roissy. Oh well.
Let’s see.. we have:
white knights (check)
men who think women will play fair (check)
men who want to believe in the inherent goodness of women (check)
men who compete with other men over fickle and untrustworthy women (check)
What could go wrong?
This particular music video is old, but it says so much (relevant to whole relationship scam)
Lyrical Autopsy: Fast Love by George Michael
http://dissention.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/lyrical-autopsy-fast-love-george-michael/
I think the so-called mens’ rights movement is based on a fundamental flaw. Rather than just promoting the rights of men to pursue their own lives as free individuals, free from the interference of others (a negative right), it seems to have devolved into the obsession with wanting to control the actions and choices of females (a positive right, if it can be called a right). This cannot work. One human being cannot compel another human being to do what the first human being thinks is right. This is just another form of tyranny.
Recognize that you cannot force other human beings to be what you want them to be and, instead, build your life around your own personal dreams and goals, whether they be business or outdoor adventure, and you will have something worthy of respect. Insist on having control over other human beings that do not share your goals and you make yourselves the moral equivalent of the feminist that you so deeply despise.
In other words, negative rights are absolute, but positive rights are no such thing. Please do not be confused on the differences between negative and positive rights. All philosophies based on the notion of positive rights are tyrannical in nature.
LA–
What a huge steaming pile of post-food! What you don’t understand is that if men don’t control women, then women will control men. Those are the ONLY two options, and not this chimera of “equality” of which you speak.
Feminism must be ruthlessly suppressed by any means necessary, or society will cease to function.
The point, Lindsey Abelard, is that a man behaves in a way that causes the woman to want to obey him, because it turns them both on. They are happy. A nagging woman and a submissive man will never be happy.
“This cannot work. One human being cannot compel another human being to do what the first human being thinks is right. This is just another form of tyranny.”
A succinct demolition and both socialism and feminism. Thanks.
Is a nice summary, although it needs to be said, not surprising. The tactics described to attack MRA, and, eventually form MGTOW (oh sweet irony) has been the same used for attacking all blogs of the Manosphere, at least since I been a participant of it.
History is cyclical, after all.
LA
Womens like when the men on her life are the dominant one. All the brainwashing by Feminazi dykes didn’t change that.
Sexual dynamics have always been a quasi-nietzschean battle of wills between the sex. Either the man plays the role of the ubermensch or he quickly finds himself reduced to the role of untermensch by the woman. There are exceptions, but they prove the rule.
The MRA critique of the family courts and how men get screwed in divorce are quite valid. This is a major issue that is not being addressed by society. However, the more generalized complaints about the dating game and the whole alpha/beta thing, I am not sympathetic to this at all. Aside from the family courts in divorce, I still think society in general is more favorable to the man, regardless of his appearance. Society defines men by what their activities. Society defines women by their physical attractiveness. Also, it is easier for a man to find meaning and fulfillment in life outside of a relationship than it is for a women to do so.
There is far more to life than just dating and getting laid. You can go mountain climbing, scuba diving, or any other number of outdoor sports. You can do international travel, do the lonely planet beach thing in South East Asia. You could play chess or computer games. You could set up a workshop and take up woodworking. You can even buy and just cruise around on a Harley. There are a zillion other things that one can do with their life than just obsess over the dating game (or lack there of).
Any of these are easier, physically and psychologically, for a man to do than a woman. Also, the women you meet in doing the activities you actually enjoy doing might not be as physically attractive as the ones you see in the night club, but terms of cognition and character, they will be far more interesting and enjoyable to spend your time with.
I think there is enough variation and options in life that there is no justification for the kind of restraint on personal liberty (either man or woman) that some of the more extreme members of the MRA and HBD communities seem to advocate.
I think you guys just need to get out more.
“There are a zillion other things that one can do with their life than just obsess over the dating game (or lack there of).”
MRA dudes are not the sort of active types that would get out and explore the world, as you are describing above Lindsey. In the main, they are middle aged and older single dads. The reason why “game” and the PUA scene appeals to them is because it gives them hope that instead of devoting their time outside of work to their children, that they can instead devote some of that time to picking up young, childless women who nevertheless get wet at the thought of a much older, broken man with baggage, and even the prospect of becoming a step-mom, which we know is every young American woman’s dream.
That old men with kids even THINK about dating or women AT ALL just shows how much they lack parental instincts and love for their own children.
Again, if someone could PLEASE explain to me who’s idea it was to even ALLOW single parents to date and get away with it to begin with???
The action taken to national disaster is awesome but it’s a damn shame that so many citizens take advantage of the negative situations.
I mean everytime there is an earthquake, a flood, an oil spill – there’s always a group of heartless people who rip off tax payers.
This is in response to reading that 4 of Oprah Winfreys “angels” got busted ripping off the system. Shame on them!
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/19/crimesider/entry5251471.shtml
Just stumbled upon this blog and thanks Fedrz for writing the History of MGTOW.
Allow me to correct a minor thing. It was Meikyo and I who got together in Hickory N.C. in October 2004. Zed was invited and supposed to come also, but was unable due to illness. The MGTOW manifest was written by me according to the notes Meikyo took on our meeting. It was originally posted on the now defunct “Our Board” as “My Way” or “Men Going Their Own Way”.
Today it has been revised several times. Basicly the wording (spelling, my errors) and a few additions were made. Jadedguy did a lot of rewriting and commenting. We moved to a board set up by Zed, we actually had several boards which all seems to be defunct by now, but MGTOW lives on in the minds of men.
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A small comment to some ideas presented here. The talk was a bout womens rights.
Basicly Men makes society by bonding and standing shoulder by shoulder to defend it. This means that men have all the negative rights as they are the makers of civilisation. We give women some positive rights in order to make society function better.
These rights can clearly be discussed and changed by men. Women can leave our society if they do not like it. This is the only negative right women have. When they stay in Our Society they must abide by Our rules!
Don’t ever forget that we, the men, are the makers of civilisation.
We, the Men are “We the People” – period!